Poison Dart Frogs - my build and general info

[jrpark22000]

The last PDF thread in here got me interested again in dart frogs.
http://www.chicagoreefs.com/forums/showthread.php?11740-Poison-Dart-Frog

After my reefing experience I knew I needed to do my homework first. One was recommended and I found 2 more good books;

Poison Dart Frogs (Complete Herp Care) - Sihler, Greg
Poison Dart Frogs: A Guide to Care and Breeding - Jason Juchems
Poison Arrow Frogs: Their Natural History and Care in Captivity - Ralf Heselhaus

I have a large tropical plant stand I build and only currently have half filled. Indoor bonsai hobby that came and went... So I have a 4'x2' shelf up to 3' high open for PDFs. I decided to go with a large exo-terra 36wx18dx24t terrarium, about 65gal. http://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Glas.../dp/B001NOBA2Y

I'm currently sourcing the terrarium and started another thread looking for a good price. Surprisingly the thread took to life and so here I'll start a more appropriate thread.

http://www.chicagoreefs.com/forums/showthread.php?14566-aquarium-adventure-dry-goods


www.Dendroboard.com is a great place for info along with the above books. I have 3 more books on my amazon wish list but all are pricey;

Poison Frogs - Jewels of the Rainforest - Jerry G. Walls; Hardcover
Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry - Stefan Lotters
Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry - Brent R. Whitaker (vet reference)



I’ll go with leuco’s for their ease of keeping and loud call. A terrarium this size can support many more, but I'm thinking 3-5. The little PDFs will get lost in all the foliage and tank size, but that is my design concept. A large rainforest undergrowth vivarium with a couple PDFs for added complexity. I'll use a exoterra monsoon or mistking with 4 heads and convert the terrarium to a glass top all to keep the humidity up.


Locally Smitty recommended Chicago reptile house in Orland Park.
Online I've found www.Joshsfrogs.com to be a great resource. They come into chicagoland a couple times a year to the reptile shows. One of the local shows is www.allanimalexpo.com and I went to another this last spring in Tinley Park.




Cheers to Tethered_Limbs for this link to a similar but larger Vivarium as to the one I'm planning.
[video=youtube;HhXXw2VcMDc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHhXXw2VcMDc[/video]

 

[jrpark22000]

So with the long winded intro, bring it on PDF people. Tips, pitfalls, supplies, personal setups, it all goes.

 

[krocky12]

tagging along. maybe il try to convince my parents to let me get some. Good luck

 

[jayjigga]

Bam! I was asking TL how far apart you guys lived because some of the plants that we like for FW would go great in a viv. Dwarf hair grass would give you a true grass look without growing too tall and out of control. Dwarf baby tears is great ground cover in and out of water, so you can use that as a plant between the tadpole puddle...soooooo many ideas. If you're dead set on a terrarium, I can't stop you, but I've wanted to take a 40B and really do it up. I can help you make a fake wall and everything if you wanted. I have quite a bunch of stuff still left, so we can definitely talk about it. I love the drilling thoughts and having a "sump" or a canister filter to keep water moving if you want a waterfall type thing.

With the terrarium, the front doors are pretty tightly sealed or kinda open? It just looks like a pain to feed if they start jumping out the front, lol...

 

[DAS212]

tagging along also, would love to get a small exo terra to raise a few and have it along side my reef tank!

 

[jrpark22000]

Quote from the other linked thread...

I still go, and I haven't seen a llama, but that would be sweet. OP is still in the planning stages and it's way too tempting to go and try to not walk out with a couple frogs. Better to cycle (yes, PDF tanks need to cycle too) and get everything going stable before adding livestock.

Yeah, it is tempting rush the build after going to a show. Just like with reefing I'm taking my time as nothing but bad happens quickly.

 

[icedearth15324]

I'm copying my suggestion from the other thread into this one:

The best thing to keep a small amount of water, especially if you are going to plumb a bulkhead for draining water in it. Somehow build a small waterfall in the corner that will flow into a small pond, with a small bulkhead/valve keeping some water in there, and put some mesh over it to keep the frogs from going down the drain. That way you get water movement, filtration of the water, a small pond for the frogs, and of course the added humidity that I bet the frogs would love, it would help with keeping misting down.

I used to have firebelly toads and a larger waterfall/island fixture with a pump. It provided the water movement for the 10 gallon tank, and kept the moisture very good. And of course it had filtration in it.

 

[DAS212]

Bam! I was asking TL how far apart you guys lived because some of the plants that we like for FW would go great in a viv. Dwarf hair grass would give you a true grass look without growing too tall and out of control. Dwarf baby tears is great ground cover in and out of water, so you can use that as a plant between the tadpole puddle...soooooo many ideas. If you're dead set on a terrarium, I can't stop you, but I've wanted to take a 40B and really do it up. I can help you make a fake wall and everything if you wanted. I have quite a bunch of stuff still left, so we can definitely talk about it. I love the drilling thoughts and having a "sump" or a canister filter to keep water moving if you want a waterfall type thing.

With the terrarium, the front doors are pretty tightly sealed or kinda open? It just looks like a pain to feed if they start jumping out the front, lol...

Haha now your making me want to do this! I think I need to get my params stable in my reef tank first however.....

 

[jayjigga]

I'm copying my suggestion from the other thread into this one:

The best thing to keep a small amount of water, especially if you are going to plumb a bulkhead for draining water in it. Somehow build a small waterfall in the corner that will flow into a small pond, with a small bulkhead/valve keeping some water in there, and put some mesh over it to keep the frogs from going down the drain. That way you get water movement, filtration of the water, a small pond for the frogs, and of course the added humidity that I bet the frogs would love, it would help with keeping misting down.

I used to have firebelly toads and a larger waterfall/island fixture with a pump. It provided the water movement for the 10 gallon tank, and kept the moisture very good. And of course it had filtration in it.

I never did an expensive mister system, just the cheap diy of a humidifier on a timer; worked awesome! After doing SW for a bit, I would totally incorporate the plumbing knowledge and just build your own tank to where it'll fit your needs. OP might even come out cheaper than the pre-fab exo.

 

[jrpark22000]

Bam! I was asking TL how far apart you guys lived because some of the plants that we like for FW would go great in a viv. Dwarf hair grass would give you a true grass look without growing too tall and out of control. Dwarf baby tears is great ground cover in and out of water, so you can use that as a plant between the tadpole puddle...soooooo many ideas. If you're dead set on a terrarium, I can't stop you, but I've wanted to take a 40B and really do it up. I can help you make a fake wall and everything if you wanted. I have quite a bunch of stuff still left, so we can definitely talk about it. I love the drilling thoughts and having a "sump" or a canister filter to keep water moving if you want a waterfall type thing.

With the terrarium, the front doors are pretty tightly sealed or kinda open? It just looks like a pain to feed if they start jumping out the front, lol...

THANKS JAY for jumping in with all the info.


Yeah, TL and I aren’t too far apart. I going to use a terrarium, if you saw the plant stand where it is going to live you’d understand. I only have access to the front. My T5 lighting will be tight to the top with only a few inches to spare. I’m still not sure, but probably doing foam walls and covering them with husk fiber. I’ll build in plant cups and incorporate large roots and branches. That’s exactly why I’m thinking drilling. I can use and external iwaki or similar HeavyDuty long lasting pump to create the waterfall w/o introducing heat. The room AC keeps the fish/frog room at 80.5 air temp, so I’ll really need to watch any heat I add to the vivarium to avoid getting too hot for the frogs.

The terrarium front doors are pretty tightly sealed. There is a vent under the doors that can be opened to create the updraft. I am a bit worried about mold/fungus from lack of airflow and still need to do more research on how to get around it. There are numerous vids on youtube on feeding dendros from these exo-terras and you do need to watch it that they don’t jump out.

Just FYI for all those following, total build cost I’m estimating to be about $800-1G which includes plants, frogs, flies, and all equipment. It is still cheaper than a full out reef but don’t fool yourself into thinking it’ll be $100 and done.

 

[jrpark22000]

I'm copying my suggestion from the other thread into this one:

The best thing to keep a small amount of water, especially if you are going to plumb a bulkhead for draining water in it. Somehow build a small waterfall in the corner that will flow into a small pond, with a small bulkhead/valve keeping some water in there, and put some mesh over it to keep the frogs from going down the drain. That way you get water movement, filtration of the water, a small pond for the frogs, and of course the added humidity that I bet the frogs would love, it would help with keeping misting down.

I used to have firebelly toads and a larger waterfall/island fixture with a pump. It provided the water movement for the 10 gallon tank, and kept the moisture very good. And of course it had filtration in it.

Great info, thanks. With all the options, it is a bit overwhelming to actually pick a single option.

 

[jrpark22000]

I never did an expensive mister system, just the cheap diy of a humidifier on a timer; worked awesome! After doing SW for a bit, I would totally incorporate the plumbing knowledge and just build your own tank to where it'll fit your needs. OP might even come out cheaper than the pre-fab exo.

Agreed, I know I can DIY something cool and effective. With the good reviews and relatively low cost of the pre-fab I'm choosing it due to convenience. I'll have enough to do building everything else.

 

[jrpark22000]

Copying from the other thread

I have been looking into buying the small 12X12X18 Exo terra vivarium and put a frog or two in there with some tropical plants. I would love to go and check some of these things out! I dont know a whole lot but am def interested.

- Dave

I'd say do your research first. PDFS really look cool but similar to reefing there are a few gotchas, albeit less gotchas. The couple books are cheap and a good start. Dendroboard.com has a ton of info if you can sort through it all, i find it easier to use google to search the site; ex. google search phrase: "site:dendroboard.com mistking"

 

[jayjigga]

You've got me itching to get back into frogs...TL's talking shrimp...this is no good! I'm tempted to silicone a divider in a 20L and house them both in the same tank! How crazy would that be?!

I'm glad you pointed out that this isn't a cheap endeavor. There's a lot of small things that's necessary to make it work out and enjoyable, but it really is work and a schedule is almost an absolute necessity. Dusting the flies, which can be a pain, also a necessity. Getting down FF culture schedules is a blast and cleaning the containers...awful, haha, but I'm too cheap to keep buying them. If you were closer, I'd just help ya make and bum a culture periodically, but alas, Japan is so far.

 

[jrpark22000]

You've got me itching to get back into frogs...TL's talking shrimp...this is no good! I'm tempted to silicone a divider in a 20L and house them both in the same tank! How crazy would that be?!

I'm glad you pointed out that this isn't a cheap endeavor. There's a lot of small things that's necessary to make it work out and enjoyable, but it really is work and a schedule is almost an absolute necessity. Dusting the flies, which can be a pain, also a necessity. Getting down FF culture schedules is a blast and cleaning the containers...awful, haha, but I'm too cheap to keep buying them. If you were closer, I'd just help ya make and bum a culture periodically, but alas, Japan is so far.

That would be nuts and cool. Do it UP!!! LOL

You hit my biggest two issues I’ve been thinking about. Fruit Fly (FF) cultures and schedule. With my existing plant stand there are always the tiny flies on the plant roots. I cannot wait until they cross breed with the flightless FF from the frogs and produce Flying FF…. ARGHHHH. I also am not looking forward to the pain of culturing them and always having a backup culture going. Second is my reef and tanks are all automated. I can leave for 7 days comfortably and not worry. Whereas with the frogs there is no automated feeder and they cannot build up the needed fat stores for such long periods w/o food.

Agreed, Japan is far from everything. It’s like we live on an island down here.

 

[madjoe]

I had dart frogs and breed flightless fruit flies. One thing u gotta keep em like under the sink they have wings and if temp to high they will be able to fly. U keep em in dark cooler area and they wont fly just crawl around and annoy u lol. I got sick of the flies so frogs had to go. But lots of cool diy cages u can do for dartfrogs

 

[jayjigga]

That would be nuts and cool. Do it UP!!! LOL
"..."
Agreed, Japan is far from everything. It’s like we live on an island down here.

Haha, you have a spare bedroom for when ma wifey kicks me out? I'm sitting on a 150G that I still can't bring myself to set up. I'm hoping someone bites otherwise, up it goes. If the 150G goes up, there's no way I'd set up a pico pdf tank, but I might still shrimp.

I've done the "oh crap, I've gotta start a culture before these flies can't reproduce" and the "I gotta run to an LFS because my frogs are calling animal cruelty", but everyone local has gotten out of it, so I really would have to rely on my discipline (I don't even WC ). One or 2 cultures is manageable but it's gross to look at a couple stacks of old cultures (which I would do because if you empty and rinse them, they clean well in the dishwasher ). I usually get a little distracted with hobbies, and I let things suffer, so I've been trying to right my wrongs with SW now that I have a booster pump. I don't have any more time, but I have to learn to make time.

Automation and vacation...that's such a tough one. There's only so much you can entrust to an individual who is watching your place, and not dusting for a week isn't the end of the world, but you'd still need to be able to trust a person to get the job done. It'd be cool to make a vaca feeder with a solenoid to control with your controller: open a couple times a day for a few minutes and see how many FF's could get through in a certain amount of time...attach it to a culture when you leave and they'd probably be fine. That's a little far-fetced though, but a cool idea.

You don't even need a flying strain to get flying flies...I think it took 4-7 generations before they started hopping. Bastages...time to die!

 

[jrpark22000]

…. U keep em in dark cooler area and they wont fly just crawl around and annoy u lol. I got sick of the flies so frogs had to go. But lots of cool diy cages u can do for dartfrogs

You don't even need a flying strain to get flying flies...I think it took 4-7 generations before they started hopping. Bastages...time to die!

I haven’t told the wife about this part yet. One of the numerous obstacles still ahead of me.

 

[jrpark22000]

Haha, you have a spare bedroom for when ma wifey kicks me out? I'm sitting on a 150G that I still can't bring myself to set up. I'm hoping someone bites otherwise, up it goes. If the 150G goes up, there's no way I'd set up a pico pdf tank, but I might still shrimp.

Well, I might need a place too. Bet we can bunk at Walt’s place… And good luck not caving on selling the 150, just wait for it to sell.

Automation and vacation... but you'd still need to be able to trust a person to get the job done

Yeah, exactly.

 

[jrpark22000]

So what about QT and a VET?

From my research it’s a lot similar to fish. To not QT is to shoot yourself in the foot. That it is not a matter of if but when you’ll get a problem with a new frog. And to not have a qualified VET is condemning the one sick and possibly all of your frogs.