The ich...best advise?

fwadiver said:
... You are also assuming that the protein immunity will protect the fish forever, it doesnt, eventually you are going to have livestock loss from ich, its easier and better for the long term tank health to cure it of any parasites or infections, just living with it is not an option and if you have that attitude you shouldnt have a reef tank and be taking care of live animals.
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I'm assuming this particular statement wasn't directed toward me...

Tearing the tank apart is a metaphor for "trying like hell to catch all the little fishies but knowing I'll gave to remove 90% of the aquascape to be successful."

I'm a fan of long term solutions. I would'nt give my kid a bandaid if he broke his arm and assume it will all work out in the end.

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I treated fish with great success with feeding of metro and focus with ginger mixed in there food also used a med made by fish vet aqua pro cure treated whole reef. now im not your usuall reefer so before somebody jumps down my throat about telling people to use meds in there tank just know that all im saying is I used it in mine not to long ago. I have all sps and shrimp and zoas mushrooms and leather . I used this meds back in the day on a softie tank worked great no issues . so when I seen ich again I decided to give it a try in my sps tank worked again. the bottle says nothing about it working on ich but it does. and if u do its at u own risk . I used it lost nothing at all but I take no responsibility if u use . on that note good luck.
 
Ryan, it does sound like we're mostly in agreement :) I also get why focusing on getting the fish healthy via better parameters may be preferable in some cases - I get why some people prefer not doing the whole remove / fish fallow / QT Thing. Not my choice, but then, it's also not may tank :)

In any case, Jason, if anything this thread should be enough for you to start doing some deeper google searches and determining what you would like to do for your tank. Good luck with what you decide on, and I do hope that your fish make it!

Mad Joe, we all know you're an unconventional reefer by now ;) Glad your treatment worked for you and your tank!
 
Jason13 said:
Tearing the tank apart is a metaphor for "trying like hell to catch all the little fishies but knowing I'll gave to remove 90% of the aquascape to be successful."
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This is my experience with catching all the fish and QT'ing them. Also, you run the risk of cycling the QT, blah, blah, blah. So I guess it boils down to whether you want to go through all that, and then use a QT before introduction forever and ever. Or keep a close eye on it by counting dots/fish, improving water quality through a good sized water change, and feeding enough to keep the fish well-fed.

Now to the nerdy stuff for Matt:

A protein modulated immune response is not what is described in the literature. Fish up-regulate genes when they are exposed to trophonts (parasitic stage) one article included 21 genes, some of which were inflammatory, others proteins, and others involved with kidney and liver function. Cited below.

Mohd-Shaharuddin, N., Mohd-Adnan, A., Kua, B., & Nathan, S. (2013). Expression profile of immune-related genes in Lates calcariferinfected by Cryptocaryon irritans. Fish & Shellfish Immunology, 34(3), 762-769.

This advances the last point, showing that fish can elicit an immune response when INJECTED with heat-killed c. irritans, showing that the immune response is not contained to the integumentary system. cited below

Dan, X., Zhang, T., Li, Y., & Li, A. (2013). Immune responses and immune-related gene expression profile in orange-spotted grouper after immunization with Cryptocaryon irritans vaccine. Fish & Shellfish Immunology, 34(3), 885-891. doi:10.1016/j.fsi.2012.12.011

So what is responsible for the immune response? The following article concludes that several compounds from the eicosanoid pathways are prevalent: such as IL-8 (inflammatory), COX-2 (inflammatory), and a lectin (binds to c. irritans to signal for destruction). cited below.

LI, Y. W., DAN, X. M., ZHANG, T. W., LUO, X. C., & LI, A. X. (2011). Immune-related genes expression profile in orange-spotted grouper during exposure to Cryptocaryon irritans. Parasite Immunology, 33(12), 679-987. doi:10.1111/j.1365-3024.2011.01337.x

Or perhaps it is a serum protein which has anti-parasitic properties? This seems to be the case with rabbitfish. Cited below.

Wang, F., Xie, M., & Li, A. (2010). A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans. Fish & Shellfish Immunology, 29(1), 32-41. doi:10.1016/j.fsi.2010.01.006

Plus, the immune response of the fish is dose-dependent on the number of trophonts. This means that a fish might not get sick if a few are around, but more than likely will when a bunch of them are around. Nor is the mortality rate anywhere near 100% at realistic doses. The variability of mortality is likely due to fish health (water quality, and feeding in our discussion above)

Mattews, R. A., & Burgess, P. J. (1995). <em>Cryptocaryon irritans</em> (Ciliophora): primary infection in thick-lipped mullet, <em>Chelon labrosus</em> (Risso). Journal Of Fish Diseases, 18(4), 329-335.

So what does it all mean? These articles show that no fish in the wild are "ich-free", and that infection is dose-dependent. The immune response is not restricted to a protein in the slime coat, but is extensive, involving all the inflammatory responses you would expect, antibodies, and even novel parasite-destroying serum proteins. And the variability in response suggest that fish health and prior exposure play a huge role. There are even immunizations for fish with heat-killed c. irritans, proving that a long term immunity is the reality, and not temporary. The take away message is that your fish can indeed mount an effective immune response, and this can be cultivated by good husbandry (∆h20). This immune response will KILL parasites in the future and disrupt their life cycle... this is also the obvious mechanism for prey-parasite equilibrium in the wild.

I like science... a lot. :fight:
 
Garlic for me to i got ich when i first upgraded to my tank and went fishless for 8 weeks. I said I would never add fish again with out qt and I didnt. Then one day I was bag floating a coral that came from a system with ich and my halide popped the bag and dumped all the ich invested water in to my tank. I had over 20 fish at the time and was not going to even think about catching them so I switched to heavy feeding with garlic 2-3x per day. It has been 6 months or so I and I have not lost any fish. My tank will always have ich in it and that sucks but keeping my fish fat and full of garlic has kept them all alive. I have also added more fish since then and been successful. When adding new fish they go in my 40g fuge for a week or so to get use to my parameters then in a acclimation box for a few days in the display to get use to all the tank mates then in to general population.
 
I am not saying immunity doesn't occur, but the problem in our closed system reef tanks is the way ich breeds and multiplies in exponential numbers, often doesn't give the fish any reprieve to allow their immune system to catch up.
 
I walk away for a couple hours and everybodies all in fight mode over ich remedies.

I like science too, but ****!

Ginger and garlic sound more like seasonings for my fish than a cure and I'm not a fan of sushi.

I'm gonna try hypo and if that doesn't work, I'll throw a few pennies in the water for good measure. Hehe...noob question riot!!!!

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Hypo is a great way, that you don't have to worry about contaminating everything with copper. I like the tank transfer method for new arrivals after having an ich free tank, as it takes less time. Read up on hypo so you do it right, it is not hard you just have to make sure to keep your salinity at 1.008 or 1.009 for 4-6weeks. Make sure to watch your pH though as it tends to drop with lower salinity. And when bringing the fish back to your DT salinity do it very slowly over the course of a week is preferred. You can go down much quicker then going back up. PM if you have any questions and I can try and help.
 
Jon, you know I will. Thanks everyone for the crash course in ich. It was an eye opener and I've got some work ahead of me!

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I battled the dreaded plague for a few months. Tried out the metro/selcon/focus mixed in with their frozen food. Took two treatments but worked finally! Fed it once a day for a month, took one month off to observe, saw it return, started treatment again for the entire next month, gone.
 
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