Direct RODI - Kalk ATO

Any one have any thoughts? I have heard a lot of things bad about hooking RODI directly to ATO or Kalk, but, sure like the convenience. I think I dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's for safety shutoff, especially by using APEX and Smart ATO (separate computers) with all things pointing to Turn-Off. I'm sure there are some techies out there that may be able to plug a hole before I feel the pain. Obviously I'm not looking to disconnect RODI from ATO, but, I'm looking for additional safety/considerations that could/should be taken with RODI connected to ATO.
 
what if your ph probe calibration drifts. Im pretty sure this is a bad idea. Also never chase ph. Just keep you alk, cal, and mag numbers good and forget ph. This is just my opinion, may not be right....
 
Those short run times are horrible for your RO membrane and will severely shorten its life span.
 
dont do it i have mine conected straight to a 30 gal brute the brute conected to the ato so the float would go down and pretty much all day i was wasting water lots if it so added shut off valve so when brute is filled i turn valve shut when brute runs low i turn back in for a day then back off is nice not carring buckets up the dam stairs
 
I cons really outweigh the projected benefits of a setup like this. Too many avenues for failure.

Like that say in the military K.I.S.S.

Keep It Simple Stu**d


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madjoe said:
dont do it i have mine conected straight to a 30 gal brute the brute conected to the ato so the float would go down and pretty much all day i was wasting water lots if it so added shut off valve so when brute is filled i turn valve shut when brute runs low i turn back in for a day then back off is nice not carring buckets up the dam stairs
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So you have some type of pumping system to pump water from brute in basement upstairs to ato tank near dt?
 
Mjl714 said:
So you have some type of pumping system to pump water from brute in basement upstairs to ato tank near dt?
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Yea a marineland pump and 3/8 tubing i ran a extension cord through the floor from ato to pump nice owning a house u can drill holes any where
 
Reddevil; I'm sure your mean well, but, why are you posting this this thread? The propose I started the thread for is to get advise on a system plumbed directly into RODI, not debate the value or risks. If you think you have an intelligent topic to bring to the group, please start a thread on KISS no, ATO or whatever value you think you could bring to the group. I'm soliciting advise on RODI plumbed ATO, I shared a pretty well thought out design, that is working well, but, like any other design can probably use improvements. This said; I value the constructive input most of the CR guys have given, and look forward to them sharing more.
 
skunkmere said:
what if your ph probe calibration drifts. Im pretty sure this is a bad idea. Also never chase ph. Just keep you alk, cal, and mag numbers good and forget ph. This is just my opinion, may not be right....
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With Kalk you have to reference pH, the value of Kalk is one source of calcium, alkalinity, (not full proportioned, but, Farley has a great article on it - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/ ) magnesium, and strontium, which is simple and when introduced slowly carries only one liability and that's high pH. This said, I'm not "chasing pH", I'm referencing pH to stop ATO from adding too much Kalk, by 1st blending saturated Kalk with RODI 50/50, then turing off Kalk solution completely at 8.33. What this does is create a worst case (pH wise) of no Kalk ATO which many reefers already do. The past steps are to shutdown ATO completely if pH or salinity gets too low or too high. Lastly the OSC function on smart ATO is to only turn on ATO long enough to put a couple of extra gallons of RODI/Kallk in the tank if the pH and salinity probes malfunctioned and smart ATO malfunctioned. Keep in mind that by malfunction, this means to get 2 gallons of unwanted water in the sump;
1.) Smart ATO would have to malfunction in the ON position
and
2.) pH would have to stick between 8.30 and 8.33
and
3.) Salinity would have to stick above 34.8
 
SkullV said:
Those short run times are horrible for your RO membrane and will severely shorten its life span.
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This would be bad for RO membrane, if there were not pressure tanks. 1st note the 3 PSI pressure thank in the drawing, this in itself with ATO has the same impact as a 4 gallon reserve, as the tank hold 4.4 gallons at 3 PSI, I have to dispense 2 gallons before the RODI system goes to low pressure (on the high pressure side, not depicted in this system), since my tank evaporates less than 2 gallons/day, worst case the RODI would cycle 1 x per day, if this were the only pressure tank in the system. This said, I have two more pressure tanks in the system, another 4.4 gallon before the DI, to provide 20-70 PSI, as shown in the drawing, this TEEs to my RO drinking water taps in my kitchen and bar sinks as well as the ATO system. Behind the 4.4 Gal 20-70 PSI is a one way valve to insure the ATO and sinks have RO and RODI water when I use the system to fill my 65 gallon water change reservoir, the 3rd pressure tank is a 30 gallon 20-70 PSI tank to insure that the RODI only needs to run a few times a month or when the 65 gallon change system is empty and needs refilled. I also have a permeate pump on the RODI which holds membrane pressure at no less than 45 PSI and no more than 70 PSI when the RODI system is active. So... I think I got that covered, not to mention that TDS is sampled before membrane ~125PPM, after membrane ~4PPM, after 1st resin stage 1 or less PPM and after the final resin stage of 0PPM. I get about a year on the DI before the 1st DI stage goes to 2PPM, so I'm not complaining and the membrane is about 2 years old now.
 
madjoe said:
dont do it i have mine conected straight to a 30 gal brute the brute conected to the ato so the float would go down and pretty much all day i was wasting water lots if it so added shut off valve so when brute is filled i turn valve shut when brute runs low i turn back in for a day then back off is nice not carring buckets up the dam stairs
Click to expand...


Joe, same as Reddevil, not looking for "don't do it" I appreciate your constructive advise to temper the don't do it, but, I didn't start the thread for a debate on if connecting RODI to ATO is a good idea but ways to make it better. See my posts to skunkmere and skull who brought legitimate concerns to the design and my answers to their concerns. I'm hoping other CR guys who have considered RODI direct to ATO will challenge my design and invite thought on how to take the hobby to the next level. Not quite space travel, but, space travel is dangerous and when we go there we learn lots and ultimately make our lives easier with the technology. I'm glad the guys as NASA didn't look up at the moon and say "don't do it too dangerous".
 
I don't want to criticize anything. I'll tell you how I did it and why, so you can explore if it would fit into your plans.
I dose kalk for ATO, by using a 65 gallon HDPE drum, purchased at farm supply store. I use same type container for saltwater mixing.
I choose these containers for volume,ease of access from top and the screw on lid. I fill the drum with RO/DI water,it is on a float switch, but only to avoid over filling. I fill once a week or so, it avoids tds creep by running 50 plus gallons at a time. I mix the kalk in, then have it plumbed to a duel head refiller dosing pump. I set the drip rate to match my alk usage. I have a second drum with plain RO-DI plumbed to the other head of the dosing pump. I use that water if additional top off water is needed to match evaporation. So I'm dripping from two different containers to match alk and evaporation.
This way I'm always dripping slowly, no fear of over dosing or a float valve on the sump not work. I have t done it yet but you also could use the plain RO-DI water, as a trace element or other supplement supply. I have had to adjust the kalk dosing rate over the years either up or down due to more or less growth. It makes easy to do by letting more or less kalk in. Hope some of this helps , my let you eliminate or change some stuff on your design to make it work the best for you. I've run my tank and multi tank systems this way for years and have been happy with what they were designed for.
 
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1jwampler said:
Joe, same as Reddevil, not looking for "don't do it" I appreciate your constructive advise to temper the don't do it, but, I didn't start the thread for a debate on if connecting RODI to ATO is a good idea but ways to make it better. See my posts to skunkmere and skull who brought legitimate concerns to the design and my answers to their concerns. I'm hoping other CR guys who have considered RODI direct to ATO will challenge my design and invite thought on how to take the hobby to the next level. Not quite space travel, but, space travel is dangerous and when we go there we learn lots and ultimately make our lives easier with the technology. I'm glad the guys as NASA didn't look up at the moon and say "don't do it too dangerous".
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oh i was just saying i tried it and basically found out exactly what skull and skunk said it would do dif is i didnt ask before i tried but hey do what u want i tried to make it work few dif ways trying to rid those issues but maybe u smarter then me good luck
Oh and sorry i didnt explain why i say dont i just like to get straight to the point u can do it it will fill your sump hell i even bought a float valve to hang on the sump but wasted lots of water r/o membrane sufferes from the on and off it just was a good idea in tge head but in action and reality causes more issues then its worth
 
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madjoe said:
oh i was just saying i tried it and basically found out exactly what skull and skunk said it would do dif is i didnt ask before i tried but hey do what u want i tried to make it work few dif ways trying to rid those issues but maybe u smarter then me good luck
Oh and sorry i didnt explain why i say dont i just like to get straight to the point u can do it it will fill your sump hell i even bought a float valve to hang on the sump but wasted lots of water r/o membrane sufferes from the on and off it just was a good idea in tge head but in action and reality causes more issues then its worth
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Did you read my replies to skull and skunk? I'm thinking the RODI startup issues pretty well beat with the pressure tanks. Tell me the holes you see (other than cost) in my RODI solution, I have been doing water changes, running ice maker, all drinking water on the same membrane for two years with <5ppm TDS, how long do you get on a membrane?

I think the greater risk is pH, but as I explained everyone running Klak needs to manage by pH because Kalk by it self usually can't keep up with calcium requirements without exceeding 8.3. So my design is set more along the lines of shutdown if anything may be wrong (starting with pH).

I don't think anything is about smart, or smarter. I think collective intelligence is incredibly powerful when managed (to stay on point). So I'm committed to the idea of hands off ATO, calcium, magnesium, strontium. I'm looking for suggestions from the group on how to make the system more bullet proof. The gain for the group may someday be a system that runs hands off for many weeks, months or years with consequences limited to requiring some hands on during a failure and confidence that it won't kill everything in their tanks.


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Volcano1 said:
I don't want to criticize anything. I'll tell you how I did it and why, so you can explore if it would fit into your plans.
I dose kalk for ATO, by using a 65 gallon HDPE drum, purchased at farm supply store. I use same type container for saltwater mixing.
I choose these containers for volume,ease of access from top and the screw on lid. I fill the drum with RO/DI water,it is on a float switch, but only to avoid over filling. I fill once a week or so, it avoids tds creep by running 50 plus gallons at a time. I mix the kalk in, then have it plumbed to a duel head refiller dosing pump. I set the drip rate to match my alk usage. I have a second drum with plain RO-DI plumbed to the other head of the dosing pump. I use that water if additional top off water is needed to match evaporation. So I'm dripping from two different containers to match alk and evaporation.
This way I'm always dripping slowly, no fear of over dosing or a float valve on the sump not work. I have t done it yet but you also could use the plain RO-DI water, as a trace element or other supplement supply. I have had to adjust the kalk dosing rate over the years either up or down due to more or less growth. It makes easy to do by letting more or less kalk in. Hope some of this helps , my let you eliminate or change some stuff on your design to make it work the best for you. I've run my tank and multi tank systems this way for years and have been happy with what they were designed for.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the description of your system Volcano, sounds much more hands off than most I think our systems are on parallel tracks here, as you use plain RODI and Kalk solution with a dosing pump to manage the alk, which effectively is pH, since 9.0 alk with Kalk on my system seems to be about 8.32 pH. I'm sure as alk/calcium requirements increase Kalk alone won't be enough. I'm not interested in changing from direct RODI plumbing, but, kind of curious how you manage cleaning the 65 gallon storage when you keep adding Kalk. I'm sure my father change 65 gal is the same as yours, it has a bulkhead on the bottom, but, impossible to get all the water out, I would think this would be an issue with Kalk.
 
1jwampler said:
Kalk by it self usually can't keep up with calcium requirements without exceeding 8.3.

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I've never heard/read this. I've been running kalk through ATO for three years. Calcium is fine without additional supplementation. Granted, I don't care about, nor do I ever check PH.

Your system looks interesting, but it's too complex for my simple/lazy brain.
 
I only clean it out once a year or so. I keep the intake for the dosing pump about 6 inches off the bottom. Limewater is self purifying , you just need to let stuff settle. I add more lime at each fill up. I leave the residue in the bottom, until I'm ready to clean. As long as you aren't sucking up residue there is no issue. Most everything settles over night. I've never had an issue in over 5 years. I know there's a long thread on RC about it by Randy in the chemistry section.
 
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