Fish Die Corals Thrive - Parameters Perfect - Went fish only 6 weeks - Dead again(QT)

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1jwampler

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Fish Die Corals Thrive - Parameters Perfect - Went fish LESS 6 weeks - Dead again(QT)

I'm at a loss. I started a 150G Mixed Reef in end of September, went through a basic Ammonia - Nitrate Cycle. Battled slightly high phosphates, got parameters very good by end of October. I put in (no QT mistake I know) some yellow tangs (4) they did well for about 10 days, so added a blue jaw and powder blue. I was told the LFS was running copper and had the fish for a while, so I rolled the dice. Thought sure ICK, when the new fish dropped 1st and about a week later the last tang. Total time ~30 days 1st tang in last tang dead. Decided to focus on some soft and easy SPS, setup JBJ 28g as QT running copper (2.5) for a new batch of fish - 3 small hippos, 1 flame angel, 1 small sailfin and 1 small clown tang. 150G looks great, corals thriving, inverts easting everything, coralline algae growing.

Over the 6 weeks, I would move 5-10 gallons of water from the display tank to the QT tank after adding copper to the transfer buckets a couple times a week. All fish in the QT tank thriving, eating, screaming for more space. The sailfin was the biggest, so I moved him over to water (in theory) he should be acclimated to since the 28G QT tank had same salinity, ph, temp as the display of course copper in the QT not the display. First 2 or 3 days, the sailfin appeared to thrive, eating everything, enjoying the space, then yesterday after work I noticed his color had went pale, and he wasn't eating. Suspecting ICK, I moved him back to QT, but, unfortunately he died today.

The timing and death seems like ICK, but, no spots, no scratching and back into the copper didn't get any kind of recovery, and since I was sensitive, i thought I caught his issues early, he was still hard to catch in the display tank.

So.... here is a link to the water parameters http://www.reeftronics.net/_/1jwampler/apex-history parameters that don't show are alk (9.8-10.5), Po4 (.09), Calcium 420-430, Mag 1200-1350.

With no white spots, no scratching, 6 weeks fishless, corals and inverts happy, same fish, same water (plus copper), moved from thriving in QT to dead in 5 days after transfer to bigger tank same water (less copper) as QT. Is this ICK, or is there some monster hiding in my live rock that only hates fish?

Thanks in advance for your input....

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Doesn't appear to be ich, if you cant see it or the fish behavior, hmmmm. When the fish are initially added do they eat normally?
 
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Thanks guys,
Madjoe - I have tested for current less than 1v water to ground, but, for safety I added a titanium grounding device to take water to ground. Now 0 volts.
Mj714 - Yep the Sailfin was picking the rocks and glass clean, and I added an algae clip which he finished 1 per day, I have the blue one that has 9 holes per sheet, it took him all day.
 
This will cause debate. But.

I know a guy whos tried it and believes it helps and now has it as a monthly diet.
He puts ginger in his food and 2 days later the visible signs of itc are gone.

You will say its part of the ich cycle and its now fallen off and its cyst in the system...most times in ich cycles the infected remains with discoloration and will continue to decline in health
Well...his blonde tang now looks great and is back to eating like me during bulk season.

You have a QT tank but he believes it increases the fish's imune system.

Usually a stray volt causes fish to twitch...ive seen it a smaller fish would die. A larger fish has handled it. I removed the voltage and the twitch left removed te ground and twitch happened again. I removed the old powerhead in the sump to stir sediment.

Alls good now
 
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Matrix,

I appreciate the suggestion. I'm just not sure this is ICK, looking for info on identifying the cause, if ICK, I have handled this before with success buy using QT and UV. I have read lots of things on treating ICK feeding to increase slime coat like Garlic, but, I'm just not ready to call this ICK.

I should also mention that I added a 36W UV with 240GPH flow as a preventive prior to moving the salifin, which is also cause for debate, but, I'm not willing to say UV stops/kills all ICK, but, I'm convinced that it reduces the free floating numbers by a great percentage before they find a host, especially with 2 MP40s on APEX, driving different wav, nutrient and reef cycles to keep ICK off the bottom. Again... guys, don't want lots of messages saying UV doesn't work, most can agree that it won't hurt and may help... If.... ICK is the problem.
 
Has your display tank been entirely fishless for 30 days? I believe this will eliminate any ich risk in dt. Then, perhaps try one fish.
 
Question, what is the condition of the fish when found dead? Were there any signs of trauma to the flesh? Any markings of any kind?
Have you or anyone else inadvertently used or sprayed any type of household cleaning products on or in close proximity of the DT?
 
CET98 - The fish was already pale (discolored) from being in the DT, so maybe a little more pale when found dead. No abrasions, or looks of attack (no obvious trauma). Anything is possible with regard to clearing, but, my wife and I know better. If there was a chemical in the DT, the QT is 10 feet away, I would imagine the QT would have the same, not to mention all the water in the QT is from the DT. I just drained 5 or 10g from the DT added copper and put in the QT.
 
Is there another diagnosis besides ICK? If ICK, I'm not familiar with a tank running UV > 100,000 uws that allows a breakout to kill a healthy Sailfin in 4 days. Any one have any thoughts?
 
1jwampler said:
Is there another diagnosis besides ICK? If ICK, I'm not familiar with a tank running UV > 100,000 uws that allows a breakout to kill a healthy Sailfin in 4 days. Any one have any thoughts?
Click to expand...

The thing that jumped out at me was the use of Copper. Copper is very dangerous. It is extremely hard to test accurate concentrations of it making it almost impossible to stay in the narrow band required. The concentration of copper required to kill ich will unfortunately kill a high percentage of fish. Copper also weakens the fish's immune system making them very susceptible to other infections.

Keep in mind that copper only kills ich in the the few days of its lifecycle where it is free swimming.


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Reefwise said:
The thing that jumped out at me was the use of Copper. Copper is very dangerous. It is extremely hard to test accurate concentrations of it making it almost impossible to stay in the narrow band required. The concentration of copper required to kill ich will unfortunately kill a high percentage of fish. Copper also weakens the fish's immune system making them very susceptible to other infections.

Keep in mind that copper only kills ich in the the few days of its lifecycle where it is free swimming.


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Click to expand...

Thanks for the advise, I have a copper test kit and maintain ~2.2 to ~2.5, the fish in the QT with copper (same water as DT +copper) are thriving, eating, healthy, fat in a 28g nano. The Sailfin was in the copper for 6 weeks, eating healthy, etc. Once I moved him (still acclimated 60 min to no copper - even though same PH, Salinity, etc) to the DT, he was great for about 3 days, eating, normal movement, then on day 4 started losing color and became lethargic so I captured him (not easy in DT) and re-acclimted him to the QT tank, he never regained color and died within 20 hours. So... is it possible going back to the copper killed him, yes, but, why did leaving the copper going in to an "in-theory" clean DT work well for 3 days, then he went pale color, lethargic, not eating - just like the other fish that died in the DT. Currently all 5 other fish in the QT are active, fat, eating, full of color with 2.2-2.5 copper using water from the DT for water changes (adding appropriated tested copper level) to the DT water before putting in the QT.

I realize everyone has a different opinion on ICK, QT procedures(copper, low salinity, etc), UV effectiveness, even food to treat ICK, but, I'm not asking for an ICK cure discussion, just if I'm missing / misdiagnosing why fish in the DT die.

Current "knowns":
1.) Fish don't live more than 5 days in DT
2.) Fish seem to live and thrive in QT
3.) All water in the QT came from DT after adding 2.2-2.5 ppm of copper to the water
4.) Coral, inverts, clams thrive in DT
5.) DT has 36w UV with <250gph flow or >100,000 uws against the tank 1.5x per hour.
6.) APEX/Ecotech MP40 program, changes every few hours no detritus, etc on rocks (tested with RIO 600 - no dust blows off the rocks or bottom).
7.) Refugium thriving even growing coralline algae (see pix)
8.) No obvious trauma or white spots on dead fish
9.) DT has perfect and steady water parameters - https://www.reeftronics.net/_/1jwampler/apex-history
10.) See tank pix with Sailfin.
 
those are definitely flatworms are would have no effect on your fish....they basically eat detritus
they will however, multiply rapidly and can become a major issue as they will start to cover corals and are down right unsightly imo...

unfortunately the best remedy for flatworms would be a halichoeres wrasse, but your fish issue will not currently allow for this... :(
 
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View attachment 14518Thanks for the advise, brought a sample of the flat worms to Sho Tank, Matt, said most of the chemicals like Flatworm eXit are "garbage", I really trust him. He said that's why he keeps a small Damsel in is reef tanks. So, rolling the dice with a $6 fish (ok and another week). After only 10 hours, I see less than 1/2 of the flat worms. Maybe the Damsel ate them, or they just saw him coming :) either way, sounds like a win, win, worst case win lose. If the Damsel lives and eats the worms, win win, and I need to review my acclamation process. But thus far, worms disappearing. Damsel looking fatter than he was 10 hours ago. I'll keep my fingers crossed, that the sail fin was just "stressed".
 
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Personally I doubt you have ich in your main system. Ich generally does not kill fish very quickly. You most likely have brook or velvet or one of the other nasty things you can have that are killing your fish. 6 weeks in my opinion is not long enough to kill any of those things if you live your main tank fallow. The min amount of time is 8 weeks or possibly 12 weeks to ensure whatever you have dies off. Another comment you made is just because a store uses a low level of copper in their system does not mean the fish are quarantined. Low levels of copper just seem to keep disease a bay but in my experience does not kill it. There are also plenty of diseases that copper does not do anything for. So once you remove them from that system and put them in your tank whatever is in there can come out as it is no longer being suppressed by copper.

My recommendation would be to take your time trying to put anything in the tank. I would leave it fallow for 8 maybe 10 weeks and start over. In the process I would pick up a fish or two and quarantine them yourself . Once the fallow period is over your fish should be ready to come out of quarantine and try again. I believe in taking things slow and being patience. Everything bad happens in this hobby quickly while all the good things take a long time and patience.
 
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