Fish Die Corals Thrive - Parameters Perfect - Went fish only 6 weeks - Dead again(QT)

1jwampler · Dec 21, 2015

goat585 said:
Personally I doubt you have ich in your main system. Ich generally does not kill fish very quickly. You most likely have brook or velvet or one of the other nasty things you can have that are killing your fish. 6 weeks in my opinion is not long enough to kill any of those things if you live your main tank fallow. The min amount of time is 8 weeks or possibly 12 weeks to ensure whatever you have dies off. Another comment you made is just because a store uses a low level of copper in their system does not mean the fish are quarantined. Low levels of copper just seem to keep disease a bay but in my experience does not kill it. There are also plenty of diseases that copper does not do anything for. So once you remove them from that system and put them in your tank whatever is in there can come out as it is no longer being suppressed by copper.

My recommendation would be to take your time trying to put anything in the tank. I would leave it fallow for 8 maybe 10 weeks and start over. In the process I would pick up a fish or two and quarantine them yourself . Once the fallow period is over your fish should be ready to come out of quarantine and try again. I believe in taking things slow and being patience. Everything bad happens in this hobby quickly while all the good things take a long time and patience.

Goat585,

Thanks for your input.

I agree, i doubt it's ICK, with the exception of it taking some time, as does brook or velvet, unlike a chemical or the likes, which could be days. My research says that most parasitic illnesses die without a host between 6 and 72 days without a host. Contributors are water temperature, sand, and water motion, so depending on what parasite, it's cycle and it's ability to attach to something would determine it's potential life cycle.

The above said, not looking for fixes yet, looking for diagnosis, it's too easy to treat something that doesn't exist, look at how many doctors give humans antibiotics for viral symptoms and don't even do a culture.

Known:
Dead fish don't have white spots (Cryptocaryon) or dusting/haze (Amyloodinium), white slime, or sores (Brooklynella).
Dead fish to have some consistency with Brooklynella is lost appetite and lost color.

Not sure where you got the idea my comment about LFS using copper as being safe, as I qualified it with "rolling the dice".

i agree with you in that there are fish diseases that copper does not do anything for. I'm not aware of "plenty" or even "any" parasitic diseases that especially those that cause death in 5 days that copper does nothing for, if dosed correctly. On that note, I think there are lots of fish that are sensitive to copper and while eradicating the parasite, weakens the fish's immunity to the point of easy infection, and other factors that lead to death.

So... 6 weeks may not be enough to eradicate parasites, if it is parasites killing the fish. However, I would think with MP40s, Gyre and 1500+ gph flow through the tank parasites would find it difficult to find a host add, 250gph of UV 36w on 150G and the parasite cycle would be slowed. Even for a fast killer like Brooklynella 5 days to kill a healthy eating fish and eating until day 3.5 really only leaves 1.5 days of "visible symptoms" seems kind of quick, when coupled with perfect water conditions, temperature stable to .2 degrees, salinity stable to 3ppt, 0 NH3/NH4, 0 NO2, 0 to unmeasurable NO3, <.1 PO4, 5 days seems quick. Then you have to bring back the fact that copper in the DT water has been keeping now 5 was 6 (sailfin) fish healthy for over 8 weeks, which points back to a parasite.

So... I'm at a loss. This is not my 1st tank, I understand going slow, QT and some chemistry. As I said in the original post, I have 5 fish in a 28G QT, so not sure where the suggestion to pick up one or two fish and quarantine them myself came from.

1jwampler · Dec 21, 2015

cet98 said:
those are definitely flatworms are would have no effect on your fish....they basically eat detritus
they will however, multiply rapidly and can become a major issue as they will start to cover corals and are down right unsightly imo...

unfortunately the best remedy for flatworms would be a halichoeres wrasse, but your fish issue will not currently allow for this...

Thanks CET98,

So, Damsel is in for 3rd day, worms disappearing, no evidence of any parasitic disease on the Damsel.
View attachment 14570 View attachment 14571

goat585 · Dec 21, 2015

1jwampler said:
Goat585,

Thanks for your input.

I agree, i doubt it's ICK, with the exception of it taking some time, as does brook or velvet, unlike a chemical or the likes, which could be days. My research says that most parasitic illnesses die without a host between 6 and 72 days without a host. Contributors are water temperature, sand, and water motion, so depending on what parasite, it's cycle and it's ability to attach to something would determine it's potential life cycle.

The above said, not looking for fixes yet, looking for diagnosis, it's too easy to treat something that doesn't exist, look at how many doctors give humans antibiotics for viral symptoms and don't even do a culture.

Known:
Dead fish don't have white spots (Cryptocaryon) or dusting/haze (Amyloodinium), white slime, or sores (Brooklynella).
Dead fish to have some consistency with Brooklynella is lost appetite and lost color.

Not sure where you got the idea my comment about LFS using copper as being safe, as I qualified it with "rolling the dice".

i agree with you in that there are fish diseases that copper does not do anything for. I'm not aware of "plenty" or even "any" parasitic diseases that especially those that cause death in 5 days that copper does nothing for, if dosed correctly. On that note, I think there are lots of fish that are sensitive to copper and while eradicating the parasite, weakens the fish's immunity to the point of easy infection, and other factors that lead to death.

So... 6 weeks may not be enough to eradicate parasites, if it is parasites killing the fish. However, I would think with MP40s, Gyre and 1500+ gph flow through the tank parasites would find it difficult to find a host add, 250gph of UV 36w on 150G and the parasite cycle would be slowed. Even for a fast killer like Brooklynella 5 days to kill a healthy eating fish and eating until day 3.5 really only leaves 1.5 days of "visible symptoms" seems kind of quick, when coupled with perfect water conditions, temperature stable to .2 degrees, salinity stable to 3ppt, 0 NH3/NH4, 0 NO2, 0 to unmeasurable NO3, <.1 PO4, 5 days seems quick. Then you have to bring back the fact that copper in the DT water has been keeping now 5 was 6 (sailfin) fish healthy for over 8 weeks, which points back to a parasite.

So... I'm at a loss. This is not my 1st tank, I understand going slow, QT and some chemistry. As I said in the original post, I have 5 fish in a 28G QT, so not sure where the suggestion to pick up one or two fish and quarantine them myself came from.

I agree with what you wrote. I have seen brook wipe out a completely healthy looking fish in 2 days and have read cases of it happening sooner. I have a lot of experience with clown fish and have seen it a time or two. It is really nasty and is a real pain to treat or get out of a system, Brook usually starts in the gills so it is possible you could not see symptoms on the fish before it dies.

As for the copper comment I must have missed your comment. I know people who believe that is an acceptable quarantining process.

I thought you moved your 5 fish from the quarantine tank already and that last comment was meant on how I would try again if you did not have any fish.

You might have something in your system that hobbyists have not identified yet. I had an issue with some sort of a disease or parasite that was attacking small tank raised clown fish but any other fish in the system including larger clown fish were not affected. We tried copper, chroloquin phosphate and some other things and it would not solve the issue. Finally left them out of the system for 3 months. Put some more in and they were fine. Don't know what it was but it was a real pain in the butt.

1jwampler · Dec 21, 2015

goat585 said:
I agree with what you wrote. I have seen brook wipe out a completely healthy looking fish in 2 days and have read cases of it happening sooner. I have a lot of experience with clown fish and have seen it a time or two. It is really nasty and is a real pain to treat or get out of a system, Brook usually starts in the gills so it is possible you could not see symptoms on the fish before it dies.

As for the copper comment I must have missed your comment. I know people who believe that is an acceptable quarantining process.

I thought you moved your 5 fish from the quarantine tank already and that last comment was meant on how I would try again if you did not have any fish.

You might have something in your system that hobbyists have not identified yet. I had an issue with some sort of a disease or parasite that was attacking small tank raised clown fish but any other fish in the system including larger clown fish were not affected. We tried copper, chroloquin phosphate and some other things and it would not solve the issue. Finally left them out of the system for 3 months. Put some more in and they were fine. Don't know what it was but it was a real pain in the butt.

Thanks again for your input.... I'm committed to watching the Damsel, if nothing else he's eradicating the flat worms. I'm hoping he continues to be healthy, I will send pix, if not, I'm wondering if there is a place I can send the fish to that could positively identify the cause, be it parasitic or chemical. While I'm sure not cheap for a lab exam, having 10K in a reef tank without fish, doesn't feel good either. After 20+ years of keeping fish in mixed reef tanks and a 5 year sabbatical, I never would have guessed, I couldn't keep a yellow tang alive. Especially with all the new equipment, like APEX and LED lighting, it was difficult to imagine running 150G on 2.5amps with SPS, clams and no chiller. I never even considered keeping a simple fish to be a challenge.

Mjl714 · Dec 21, 2015

Wow, what a pain. As you know, if any fish could survive, Damsel's are a good bet. Goodluck. Following...

1jwampler · Dec 24, 2015

Update: 5 days after putting in the Damsel I don't see any flat worms. The Damsel appears healthy. Obviously the only things this proves is Damsels eat flat worms and Damsels are more hardy than tangs.