Question about heater(s) in large system.

[Vapour1ze]

Hi all, I have a bit of an issue. My heaters are RUNNING NON-STOP in the cold months. Today, they can't even keep up. The warmest I can get my tank is 76.5

The past year and a half I haven't really had to big of an issue, but it does take about 8 hours to go from 76.5 up to 78.

Here is my situation. I have a 220 in my office at home. (Next to outside wall)
I have a 93 cube, in my living room, next to outside wall. Both are near HEAT vents too though... I keep my house at 66 / 68 degrees during winter.

I have a 300W heater in the 220 display. Nothing in the 93 display, and both are plumbed together to a sump in the basement. (Basement is very cold, probably ~60 degrees. The sump has (2) 250w heaters.

So, total water volume = ~ 400 gallons. (2) 250w in sump, and (1) 300w in 220 display.

Not enough?

Thoughts?

Everything is controlled via APEX.
Cheers!

 

[icedearth15324]

Is the plumbing insulated from the sump in the basement up to the display tanks? Especially when the house is that cool, that could be a pretty big distance to go where the water is exposed to the colder air and it could make it stay cold. If the pipes aren't insulated, maybe get some and see if that makes a difference. I know you have a large heater in the large tank, but with the water always leaving the tank and going down to the sump, that heater is basically doing nothing since the water is always leaving.

 

[ultimatemj]

Where is the APEX temp sensor?
How many temp sensor/thermometers do you have? Are all on APEX or just 1?

 

[Vapour1ze]

Is the plumbing insulated from the sump in the basement up to the display tanks? Especially when the house is that cool, that could be a pretty big distance to go where the water is exposed to the colder air and it could make it stay cold. If the pipes aren't insulated, maybe get some and see if that makes a difference. I know you have a large heater in the large tank, but with the water always leaving the tank and going down to the sump, that heater is basically doing nothing since the water is always leaving.

No insulation, and not a problem most of the time... I could look into insulating, but not sure... More heaters? Or bad idea?

Where is the APEX temp sensor?
How many temp sensor/thermometers do you have? Are all on APEX or just 1?

I have one sensor. Located in the sump... In the bubble trap for most water movement. I have no thermometers in tanks... I supposed that would be a cheap, worth investment... 2 Heaters on Apex, the heater in the 220 is just set to 78. I'll actually be changing that tonight.

 

[icedearth15324]

No insulation, and not a problem most of the time... I could look into insulating, but not sure... More heaters? Or bad idea?

The main issue is where is the heat going? Obviously the amount of heaters you have should be good enough to handle it, so something has to be cooling the tank at a rate faster than the heaters are doing their thing, especially if you say they are constantly running and can't keep your tank warm. I'd look at other options besides adding extra heaters. Although I guess you could test to see if each heater is working properly in a separate tank.

 

[Vapour1ze]

They're working. I know that for sure. The tanks are next to outside walls... It was 15 degrees out this morning.... Just saying.

 

[ultimatemj]

So the great thing about basement sumps is avoiding chillers....the trade off is the need for more heating capacity. This winter has been so mild it really hasn't tested/defined your heating needs.

With enough heating power, the other thing you can do with the Apex is narrow the on/off off band. I run my primary heater ON 77.5 OFF 78 and the secondary ON 77 OFF 78. This reduces the amount of "cooled water" from building up in the system, which would take longer to raise back to temp. My secondary only runs when the outside temp is below 10deg...

When you have a controller, I'm a fan of the Finnex ti heaters. They don't mind being "switched on and off" all the time, are built super solid, and come in bigger sizes. In my ~70g total system volume (55gdisplay) I'm using 2 of the 300w.

 

[Vapour1ze]

So the great thing about basement sumps is avoiding chillers....the trade off is the need for more heating capacity. This winter has been so mild it really hasn't tested/defined your heating needs.

With enough heating power, the other thing you can do with the Apex is narrow the on/off off band. I run my primary heater ON 77.5 OFF 78 and the secondary ON 77 OFF 78. This reduces the amount of "cooled water" from building up in the system, which would take longer to raise back to temp. My secondary only runs when the outside temp is below 10deg...

When you have a controller, I'm a fan of the Finnex ti heaters. They don't mind being "switched on and off" all the time, are built super solid, and come in bigger sizes. In my ~70g total system volume (55gdisplay) I'm using 2 of the 300w.

Wow...


So if I bought 2x 800watters I'm at 1600 watts... That seems like I would need a separate breaker just to run heaters... F@@K!!! I'm wondering if I should pull a heater up inside the cube tank in the living room, so each tank then has a heater. Instead of having heaters in the sump where water QUICKLY just passes through. Doesn't really circulate.

 

[ultimatemj]

I don't really like the idea of having heaters on the Apex AND "on their own". The Apex provides you the ability to set fail safes (built in thermos can get stuck on and you have no way to kill it + alarms).

Fairly sure you don't need 1600w LOL

And if your flow through the sump is "really fast" you may want to slow it down to whatever flow your skimmer can process, or recirculate part of the return back into the sump (which is what I do because my return pump is oversized). Note the secondary heater is in a different chamber.
View attachment 15871

Not sure why it decided to show .25 & .75 when I add the heater on/off to the chart, but this gives you a sense of how often the heater is running. This is yesterday:
View attachment 15872

 

[Vapour1ze]

I don't really like the idea of having heaters on the Apex AND "on their own". The Apex provides you the ability to set fail safes (built in thermos can get stuck on and you have no way to kill it + alarms).

Fairly sure you don't need 1600w LOL

And if your flow through the sump is "really fast" you may want to slow it down to whatever flow your skimmer can process, or recirculate part of the return back into the sump (which is what I do because my return pump is oversized). Note the secondary heater is in a different chamber.
View attachment 15871

Not sure why it decided to show .25 & .75 when I add the heater on/off to the chart, but this gives you a sense of how often the heater is running. This is yesterday:
View attachment 15872

Flow through sump is decent I'd say... Although, what do you think is a good number (gph) to have through my sump? I have a 93 on 1st floor, and 220 on 1st floor, sump is in basement. One return pump feeds both tanks. Pan World 200PS

Thoughts?

 

[ultimatemj]

I've often heard 4x to 6x your volume and others aim for their skimmer's flow rate...which is sometimes aimed at that 4x 6x of system volume number

Sounds like your pump is on target, but adding in the sump recirc loop is a good way to dial it in~

 

[Saltwater77]

Hey Luke I don't know what brand of heaters you are using but it seems like these days most of the heaters available today are garbage. I was usind marineland 400 watt heaters and I went thru a dozen of them and they all failed within 6 months. Some didn't even last a month. I switched to finnex brand I believe the 800 watt models and haven't had one issue with them. They have been running for like 8 months on 3 different reefs I have. A 210,175,and125 gallon display not including the sumps. Best switch I made. Marineland heaters were the best when I was a teen but since they are manufactured in china now quality is non existent.

 

[#theMatrix]

Hmmmm i got two TI finnex in storage that ive been just keeping.
Might have to give them some use other than water change heaters.

.....the plugs have the temp set control...wich makes my power block bulky and even takes up half of an extra outlet which is why i was not using them in my main system.

Both 500w.
Well guess ill be giving them more use.