The ich...best advise?

J

Jason13

New member
Well...I woke up today and noticed almost immediately that a few of my fish had some ich. 2 chromis have 3-5 spots, and the firefish has 1.

How did this happen?
1. I impulse bought some fish from a lfs that I had never been to. And i didnt have a qt.

2. i tore up my tank hunting a dottyback on sunday night to put him in a new tank.

As far as treatment, I'll be setting up a qt tonight and tearing up my reef again, unless there is some better advise anyone can share.

This is my first dance with ich.

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My advice would be to run the tank fish less for 8-10 weeks and then keep your QT below 1.009 for that entire time (hypo salinity). Marine ich will run through its life cycle in your tank and without a host should die off. The longer you go fish less the better.
 
FWIW: I once heard anecdotal evidence that Ich outbreaks can be completely stress related. An old school reefer had a big tang that outgrew his sleeping spot and the other fish had already dug into theirs so he couldn't find a good one. He believed the resulting ich outbreak on the tang and the other fish was a result of that single fish's stress. He changed his scape and the ich went away.
The only time I ever saw any sign of Ich (that might have been an air bubble or some sand in my early days of overreacting to everything) I rotated a couple of rocks to let my fish reestablish their territories and reduce their stress level. Whatever I perceived to be ich went away. Draw your own conclusions from that lack of science, but sometimes it can help to start with something really simple.
 
I've had in ich outbreak a few times over the last ten years. I never used to qt, but i've learned my lesson. I've only beat an outbreak once without losing fish. I used copper, but I've never tried hypo.

When I succeeded, I moved all fish to a 45 gallon (which was entirely too small for the size of my fish) with a bunch of PVC pipe and treated with copper. I had to do water changes every two days. I let my display tank go fallow for a month, until I was forced to move the fish back because they were kicking the crap out of each other in the 45 gal. Their fins began to deteriorate due to the harsh copper. At the time, my DT was FOWLR, so I cranked the heater up when the tank was fallow. I didn't lose any fish and I have not seen ich for more than three years.

I don't buy new fish often because I'm scared to death of harming my existing fish. When I do, I QT. In the future, I will QT with copper and I'll also be using prazipro due to my fluke outbreak a few months ago.

Good Luck!
 
Do some searches, there is a lot of good information out there, although you will ultimately see many different opinions in the matter. Cryptocrayon (marine ich - it's a different creature than freshwater ich) was my intro to keeping a tank! I am just about into the final stretch (last week!) of my very long fishless cycle (12 weeks) so have somewhat recently done a lot of research myself.

There are many treatment options, the ones most people prefer being copper, quinine sulfate (used more for copper resistant strains of crypto, and yes they do exist), or hypo. Be careful with hypo, it does stress the fish somewhat, and you have to be spot on with your salinities - if you mess it up, you may either fail to eradicate the crypto, or over-stress your fish. Additionally, like copper, different species tolerate hypo in differently.

Each treatment type has its own benefits and downsides, but do realize that you have to treat all of your fish now, regardless of whether they show visible signs of the disease or not. In order to not reinfect them, you do have to go fish-fallow in your display tank for a certain amount of time. How long is up to your own risk profile, but many people will say between 4 - 10 weeks. Most strains eggs will hatch (and then die within 24-48 hours of not finding a host) within 3 - 4 weeks, but there have been studies where eggs have lived out to 99 days - hence my own ultra cautious 12 week fallow period. Please note that is incredibly rare. I have also read that temperature will not speed up their life cycle in the same way that it does with freshwater ich (they're not the same creature). Temperature may have had a role in the eggs laying dormant for longer however, but I have not read any definitive studies towards that.

So, while I would highly recommend treating your fish and going fallow for a long period of time, there is another philosophy towards crypto, which is essentially what Herbie alluded to. That is basically saying, you leave it alone, and strengthen your fish's immune system, with the idea being that they can beat the parasite back themselves. This keeps the parasite at sub-visibly infected levels, and for many people this is enough, as the fish look and act healthy. It's not something I personally would do, as I can't help but imagine the fish being constantly infected at a very low level - I mean, this is a parasite that actively feeds on, and preys on your fish! I do not have anything against people that support this philosophy though, and it works fine - people have seemingly healthy fish that display no signs of stress and live long lives. They are likely carriers, however, and anytime something happens that stresses the tank, you risk a flare-up.

Ultimately, it is up to you to treat how you feel most appropriate, but I hope that whatever treatment you choose works out well for you and your fish! Good luck!
 
Basef on what I've veen reading since posting this, and the additional info, I'm inclined to believe stress played a part in my current dilemma.

I dread tearing up the aquascape, but it seems inevitable.

What about boosting immune system with garlic? Does anyone have a success story to share?

Also, freshwater dipping? I read that it will kill it, but is that pointless seeing as I'll be using dt water to get the qt started before going through the hypo?

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If you want to go an immune system boosting route, I would recommend doing heavy vitamin c dosing, after you do plenty of reading on what that means, and what your system requires (like a good skimmer, and stable kH levels). Look for Pufferpunk's long standing thread for advice on it. That's just my advice on it, to each their own.

If you decide to do the immune system route, you also can likely just leave the fish in the tank and treat there, as you would not be guaranteeing eradication either way. Additionally, you need them to get strong and healthy as quickly as possible - catching fish is very stressful (to both the fish and the keeper!)

Freshwater dips can kill exposed cryptocaryons, but read up on it's life cycle. Just do a google search for cryptocrayon life cycle. The problem with FW dips is that for part of its the life cycle the parasite is deep in the fish's tissues, and so protected from the FW dip.
 
vitamin c and garlic are both useless, the 2 known treatments that work are hypo and copper. hypo is a slower cure in my experience, I have lost fish using that method, copper I have had 100% success rate with, move fish to hospital tank, treat with copper safe, leave tank fishless for 6-8 weeks and ich will be gone. There is a ton of bad information out there that continues to get spread around because of the name ich and people associating it with freshwater ich so I will repeat again, copper and hypo are the ONLY things that CURE cryptocaryon or marine ich.
 
Back up a second, is this a reef tank or fish only? Fish only = easy, use copper. If you disturbed the tank, and now you have some, give it a few days and monitor the progress, feeding heavily, and maybe do a water change. Plenty of fish can overcome ich, its usually poor water quality that stresses the fish out.
 
pacmann117 said:
Plenty of fish can overcome ich, its usually poor water quality that stresses the fish out.
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if it is cryptocaryon this is false, they will not overcome it, they can develop a protein immunity in their slime coat, however this is temporary and they will get infected again, see my above post, there is only 2 known ways to cure marine ich.
 
Matt is correct, and my apologies if that wasn't clear from my posts - if you truly want to get rid of crypto, you have to use copper, hypo, or quinine sulfate. These have been tested and proven. Keep in mind crypto is not only a problem hobbyists face, but also commercial fisheries and aquariums, etc.... hence there is a lot of research into this particular parasite. Those three methods are proven, although out of the 3, copper is perhaps the most widely recognized and effective. Hypo is used, can be effective - but requires a huge amount of diligence on the part of the keeper in ensuring accurate salinity - too high, the crypto lives, too low, your fish die.

As for wanting to allow the fish's immune system to overcome it (and for the sake of this discussion, I am including their slime coat as part of their immune system), they can reduce the parasitic infection to sub-visual levels - but it will remain in your tank, and your fish, allowing a recurrence anytime the fish are stressed, or the crypto population rises. There are some believe that due to genetic limitations and inbreeding, a strain will be eradicated from your tank over time. I do not believe this to be the case, nor have I seen any studies to this effect, but for whatever reason it remains a misnomer in our hobby. Anecdotal evidence is just that - a population size of 1 generally has few conclusions that can be broadly applied. If you stick to what we really "know" - do a fish-fallow period in your reef (assuming you have a reef here, fish only, you can treat your tank if you remove your inverts), and treat your fish with copper or quinine sulfate in a hospital tank.

Essentially - by choosing to allow a fish's natural immune system to fight the parasite, you are resigning to keeping crypto in your tank. Fish can live with this parasite - I am not contending that, and some people are content to maintain their aquariums this way. That choice is yours, but be informed and make that decision with as much reading and understanding of the parasite as possible.
 
tkh said:
Essentially - by choosing to allow a fish's natural immune system to fight the parasite, you are resigning to keeping crypto in your tank. Fish can live with this parasite - I am not contending that, and some people are content to maintain their aquariums this way. That choice is yours, but be informed and make that decision with as much reading and understanding of the parasite as possible.
Click to expand...

This is what scares me about getting fish and corals from other folks who use this method. Whenever they give a frag, fish or chaeto to another reefer, they are risking infecting another reefer's tank with the Ich that they thought would die off by letting their fish battle it on their own instead of just following proper procedures and QTing with copper.
 
The tank transfer method has also been proven to work, along with Hypo and Copper. If you want an ich free tank you have to follow on of those three methods and leave the tank fallow for 8 - 10 weeks. If you want a tank that has ich, but the fish keep it at bay, you need to provide a good diet and low stress for those fish. If you go the ich free route you will need to quarantine all new arrivals fish using on of the 3 methods and corals (8 - 10 weeks fallow). Now ich doesn't always get transferred on frags, but it can still happen. GL with what you decide.
 
Exactly! Its scary how much can potentially infect your tank. I was so happy to be nearing the end of my display tank quarantine, only to realize that perhaps I will not be able to celebrate with new additions of coral, as I do not have a coral QT setup yet (and lack the funds to do so until payday!)... :tsk: At least my fish QT is about done cycling...

edit: forgot the tank transfer method - thanks Jon! Although, talk about a hassle... but yes, it has been proven as a successful option.
 
Sub-visual is what you have when you buy fish from a LFS. Erik, you are deluding yourself if you think that fish are ever "ich-free", this simply isn't the case. They are housed together at collection, again at wholesale, and again at the local fish store... I can assure you they have all been exposed to ich at some point in the supply chain. I am not purporting that ich magically disappears, more like the fish adapts to its presence, and it is no longer an issue. Seen it plenty of times. Ppl over-react and break out the QT and copper at the first signs, when they need to do some water changes and get their fish eating a good diet.

And believing that there are only 2 ways to cure ich is hyperbole, i will cite the article on chloroquine that popped up on advancedaquarist last month.

And I think we are all agreed that QT before display is the best option.
 
Ryan, I know all fish have been exposed to it. I also realize that they likely have a sub-visual infection at the LFS. This is why a sufficiently long quarantine and proper medication before adding them to your tank is recommended, so that the fish can rid themselves of it completely. You can have a crypto-free tank - it just requires a lot of patience, and being incredibly careful what is added to the tank. We can disagree on this point if you would like - I am well aware that many people simply believe it to be part of the hobby, and present everywhere.

I also realize that many fish are exposed to it in the ocean, some reports indicate that infection levels are as high as 30% or so. However, in their natural environment, once the fish rids itself of crypto (when the trophonts mature and become protomonts / tomonts), it is probably also heading somewhere else, where it may not be reinfected. If they bed down in the same place every night, well then they will likely remain infected.

I am not disagreeing by saying that you must eradicate crypto in order to have relatively healthy fish. I am just saying that if you chose to go that route, than be aware that you are still harboring crypto in your system, in your fish's system, and that it can make a reappearance (population spike), anytime the fish are stressed out sufficiently to affect their immune system.
 
I think we are on the same page then, but as it relates to the OP, he probably had it before and it wasn't an issue. I am in favor of everyone having an ich-free tank, but in this case, it may harm the tank more than it would benefit it. I'm assuming he has an established reef tank BTW, so it would be virtually impossible to get it out now.

Based on my experience with my clients, it usually appears as a stress response, and it is more beneficial to improve water quality, feed properly, and improve flow than to tear the tank apart, set up a qt, etc...
 
there is no need to tear the tank apart, remove fish to QT with copper, leave tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, ich will be gone, not impossible. otherwise anytime u have a temp drop, stress, introduce a new fish you will have an ich outbreak, i think its totally worth it to cure the tank. You are also assuming that the protein immunity will protect the fish forever, it doesnt, eventually you are going to have livestock loss from ich, its easier and better for the long term tank health to cure it of any parasites or infections, just living with it is not an option and if you have that attitude you shouldnt have a reef tank and be taking care of live animals.
 
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