Well... Poop

elite01

Member
Yea poop.. it took a bit but I've finally been infected... I've got the ich... I moved about a week or two ago It must've stressed the fish (yellow tang) enough that it appears the immune... blah blah blah. I'm setting up a separate tank to treat with Cooper but have a few questions. I have a 20 gal for... 6 fish including the tang. All others are small. Well that be enough of a size to qt them? On to the larger issue.. how do I catch them without tearing my rock work apart? Thanks guys.. n gals :)
 

Triggerdood

Active member
Invest in a fish trap. Precision Marine makes a nice one. Aquacave should have it in stock. A 20g may be kinda small for 6 fish, but really depends on what they are imo.
 

ColaAddict

New member
how bad is it? if it's just stress and not too bad, maybe just give it some time and feed with garlic? a lot of times it goes away, once the fishes settle. fish trap is a good way if you really want to treat, but if you don't have an established QT, you might have a really hard time and stress them even more.
 

Sawdonkey

Premium member
I'm more in the "get them all out there and treat with copper" camp. I've never had luck with treating with garlic and hope. Good luck on whatever method you choose.
 

elite01

Member
I'm doing garlic soaks and feeding more than usual and upped my water changes. I had the same thought that a 20 would be too small for the tang, let alone six of them.

It's been a problem for the week or two note but all the fish are eating just fine without any issue. Ill probably hold out a week before I decide to pull them out and qt. Fingers crossed garlic is sufficient enough.
 

Sawdonkey

Premium member
Someone wrote this up at r2r and I think it is good info.


I figured I'd start a discussion on Ich, in Marine fish. The reason I'm doing this is because there's a lot of myths and mis-information, regarding Ich, in Marine Fish, as apposed to Ich in Freshwater fish. I figured some of these myths needed to be "brought to light." Lately, on a couple of Reef Forums, a lot of new hobbyists have been struggling with Ich. It seems I've been reading 2 or 3 new threads every day. Unfortunately, some members are giving out bad information, which will only make matters worse. So I decided to start this thread, hoping it'll lead someone in the proper direction!!

To start with, Ich is a parasite that can infect Marine and Freshwater fish, HOWEVER, it's two totally different parasites. Some treatments for Freshwater Ich won't kill Saltwater Ich.

Marine Ich=Cryptocaryon irritans
Freshwater Ich=Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

It's important to properly identify Marine Ich, before treatment begins. Just as in Freshwater fish, Ich will present itself in a way that looks like someone sprinkled salt on your fish. It will come and go, with the Trophont, ProTomont and Tomont stages of the life cycle. Trophont is when the parasite is actually attached to the fish and usually lasts 3-7 days. After this, the parasite falls from the fish and lives in the substrate (ProTomont stage) for a period of hours. Then, during the Tomont stage, the parsite encysts, dividing into hundreds of "daughter" parasites, called Tomites. Tomites are non-infectious and this stage can last from 3-28 days. After this Tomite period, the eggs hatch, becoming Tomonts and go in search of a Fish Host.

Another interesting thing about Marine Ich, is that it seems to drop off Host Fish, AND search out Host Fish at "night." This creates a problem for the fish. Most Marine fish chose the same spot to "sleep," every night. Because of this, the Ich parasite falls off of the fish, goes through it's reproduction cycle, and easily finds the same Host Fish, when it's ready.

Here are some "treatments," that don't work.

Increasing temperature.

While increasing temperature is a common, and somewhat effective way to treat Freshwater Ich, it does absolutely nothing to help with Marine Ich. There's some studies to show that it "might" speed up the life cycle of the parasite, but even these studies are controversial. Marine Ich also has a higher "optimal temperature," so raising the temperature could actually benefit the parsite. Raising water temperature also has the negative effect of lowering the oxygen content of the water.

Garlic

While garlic has been shown to have immunity boosting properties, among Freshwater Fish, it has been shown to NOT have the same ability among Marine Fish. Studies have shown that garlic "may" inhibit the parasites ability to find fish, by smell, in Marine fish, so "might" result in a reduced ability to parasitize. Garlic is also thought to "possibly" increase a Marine Fish's appetite, keeping the fish healthy and able to "fight off" Ich, but even that is only anecdotal and hasn't been reproduced, scientifically, in many studies. Garlic HAS been shown to cause liver damage, among Marine Fish.

UV Sterilization

The use of a UV Sterilizer will reduce the number of Ich parasites, but not significantly. The problem with UV is it will only kill stuff that passes over the light, and ONLY if the UV light is strong enough and the life form passes over the light slow enough for the UV Strength to kill it. The Ich parasite is only in the water column for a short time, while dropping off of a Host Fish, or in search of a Host Fish. It can only pass through the UV sterilizer during the period of time that it's in the water column. Unfortunately, UV will only kill a small portion of the Ich parasites, IF the UV sterilizer is powerful enough (wattage) and the flow rate is slow enough.

Marine Ich is present in all Marine Fish and is in all Marine Tanks and is a result of a fish being stressed

A huge myth!!! Research has shown that, with proper QT procedures and treatment, Ich can be eradicated from a Marine Aquarium. Without a Fish Host, Marine Ich will die. However, the life cycle of Ich has to be taken into account, so the Ich parasite needs to be void of a Fish Host for a period of 6-8 weeks.

Now I'll outline some SUCCESSFUL treatments for Marine Ich.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity treatment is probably the most successful and least stressful treatment, if done properly. Unfortunately, this can't be done in a reef tank. However, it can be done in a Marine Fish Only tank, with a caveat or two.

Hyposalinity is treatment by lowering the salinity of saltwater, to a level that it will kill the parasite, but NOT kill the fish. In fact, lowering salinity eases a fishes ability to "respire," and increases oxygens ability to mix with the water.

Changes in salinity do need to be done correctly, as to not stress the fish. Lowering the salinity can be done quicker than raising the salinity. Typically the salinity can be dropped from 1.025 to 1.009 in a matter of a couple of days, without negatively effecting the fish. However, once treatment is over, the salinity should be raised back up to 1.025 slower (over the period of a week.) Treatment needs to be done for a period of 6-8 weeks, OR at least 2 weeks after all visible signs of Ich are gone. At that point, salinity can be slowly raised, over a 1 week period. During this same time, the display tank must remain "fallow," or fishless. Without any Fish Hosts, the Ich parasite will die.

1.009 has been shown to be the level where Ich can no longer survive, without negatively effecting the fish. Again, this cannot be done in a reef tank, as motile and inmotile inverts will die. In a Fish Only system, this can be done, however, beneficial bacteria, micro fauna, micro flora, amphipods, copepods, etc. will perish. Those things will re-populate, over time.

Hyposalinity is best done in an established QT tank.

Copper

Copper treatment CANNOT be done in a reef tank and shouldn't be done in a FO (Fish Only) Tank. The copper will leach into the live rock, sand substrate, etc. Later, the copper will leach back out of these materials, poisoning the tank. Copper is very fatal to any Marine Inverts.

Copper treatment needs to be done very carefully and with a very accurate Copper Test Kit. At too low of dosage, it won't kill Ich. At too high of dosage, it kills fish. It's very important to follow the manufacturer directions AND have an accurate test kit.

Transfer Method

This method is effective, but a lot of work...lol.

It involves having 2 available tanks. Each day, the fish are moved from one tank, to another. In between, each tank is emptied, cleaned and refilled with Saltwater. The idea is that the Ich parasite will be left behind, in the used water. This process should be done for a period of 10 days. This treatment is also quite stressful to the fish, with being moved every day. Also, the display still needs to remain fallow for 6-8 weeks.

Here's some further reading, for those interested.
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
 

Triggerdood

Active member
Garlic does absolutely NOTHING except entice fish to feed. It also will not go away on its own. The natural life cycle of the parasite fools people into thinking it does. Pull the fish. Treat with copper. Leave display fallow. Done.
 

Sawdonkey

Premium member
Copper it is :)
Good choice in my opinion. I think often people rely on other methods (hope and feeding) and then resort to copper/QT when the other methods don't work. Then the fish are so far downhill that the treatment has no chance. Good luck.
 

100LL

Member
So now that you've decided to use copper, what are you going to do about tank size? Go for it using the 20g or find something larger?
 

elite01

Member
I'm going to find something larger for the tang and put the rest into the 20 gal. I've got no way around it. Thanks [MENTION=1455]Sawdonkey[/MENTION] for the link. I was hopeful for the fish fighting it off but it's not worth risking their life
 

Sawdonkey

Premium member
I'm going to find something larger for the tang and put the rest into the 20 gal. I've got no way around it. Thanks [MENTION=1455]Sawdonkey[/MENTION] for the link. I was hopeful for the fish fighting it off but it's not worth risking their life
No problem. If you're doing a larger tank for the tang, you might as well throw all of the fish in there. Maintaining two QTs would be a PITA.
 

edin0009

Member
Ruby Reef Kick-ICH worked for me on my first 55 gallon reef tank one treatment, corals was not effected at all. but you must feed them a lot so they can fight it off, food with garlic and sea veggies. 4 years latter same fish no ick
 

ColaAddict

New member
Copper is a good choice. I'm just concerned that he has six fish to QT and to set up a quick QT will be a pain in the butt and will probably stress the fishes out more. Plus, get ready for ammonia spikes in the QT tank. make lots of saltwater. try to throw in as much live rock in there as you can spare to help with ammonia. The problem is if you are not ready to deal with 6 fish in an emergency QT with all the ammonia spikes, you will end up losing all of them. That's why I'm suggesting just keeping an eye on them to see if they will fight them off themselves. A long time ago before I qt'd my fishes, I would occasionally get stressed tangs show signs of ich spots, then would go away after they settle and eat a lot.
I'm a fan of qt'ing new fish in an established QT tank, with copper. However doing an emergency QT on 6 fish in an unestablished tank is quite risky. So just be prepared with extra saltwater/ammonia neutralizers/bacteria in a bottle if you are going the QT route.
 

elite01

Member
Copper is a good choice. I'm just concerned that he has six fish to QT and to set up a quick QT will be a pain in the butt and will probably stress the fishes out more. Plus, get ready for ammonia spikes in the QT tank. make lots of saltwater. try to throw in as much live rock in there as you can spare to help with ammonia. The problem is if you are not ready to deal with 6 fish in an emergency QT with all the ammonia spikes, you will end up losing all of them. That's why I'm suggesting just keeping an eye on them to see if they will fight them off themselves. A long time ago before I qt'd my fishes, I would occasionally get stressed tangs show signs of ich spots, then would go away after they settle and eat a lot.
I'm a fan of qt'ing new fish in an established QT tank, with copper. However doing an emergency QT on 6 fish in an unestablished tank is quite risky. So just be prepared with extra saltwater/ammonia neutralizers/bacteria in a bottle if you are going the QT route.
I never took that into consideration. As of now only the tang has signs of ich showing. Clowns and others look just fine. Hopeful thinking that only the tang has it, but foolish thoughts. I've used the ruby reef once before and wether it was the ruby reef or the fish themselves that simply fought it off ill never know but it cleared up. I'll update on progress. Thanks guys (n gals)
 
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