Help Needed!

DanSreef

DanSreef

Premium member
Hellow CR... I have had a new 92 Gal Corner Bow Front tank in process since before Thanksgiving(see my build thread in my signature). Up until a few weeks ago... I have been really pretty happy with the progress of the tank.

Of late... I have been noticing I am loosing color... and am now seeing some tissue recession on of all things... my ORA Birds nests and other SPS corals. I have lost a coupole of millis a couple months ago to RTN... I pitched them and did not even try to save parts.

Water parameters seem perfect and are very stable. The last measurements are:
Phosphate 0 +/-0
Nitrate 0 +/- 0
Mg 1350 +/- 50
Calcium 440 +/-10
Alkalinity 9 +/-1
PH 8.32 +/- .1
Temp 78 +/- .4
Salinity 1.025 +/-.001

The only exception to the stability is the PH which moved up about .20 to 8.45 for a couple of days when I opened the windows in the house. I do dose Kalk in my top off and have reduced my amount to get the PH back in line...they now seem stable at about +/- .1 of course with some daily fluctations with the light cycle... otherwise... I think the water parameters have remained very stable.

I am using the Apollo LED Dimmable on an Apex Controller. I really have not done too much as far as change is concerned to the tank. I did buy a couple of small clown gobies that love to swim amongst the coral banches... which yes could irrate the coral.... but cause the coral to basically begin to die... that should not be the cause. I cannot find any pests to speak of in the tank like flat worms or nudis. As for fish... I have three green chromis, four sunrise chromis, 1 bi color blenny, 1 flame tail blenny, 2 onyx clowns... There is a nice size clean up crew.

What is wierd is that I had terrific growth on many of the same corals that now look to be declining. My forest fire digi was growing like crazy... as was a sunset monti... both have now lost color and are starting to bleach out. My green slimmer which has had significant growth since I moved it into the tank... is now loosing color... I got a spongde (sp?) from ETR that was doing terrific... growing like crazy... now it too looks like it is going south. Now I have my birdsnest that are starting to look bad.... and I am at my wits end.

So... I guess I am looking for help trouble shooting:

A) can you have an environment that is too low of nutrient? My goals was to have an ULN system... and I run a bio pellet reactor as well as a carbon and GFO reactors. Yesterday I shut off the GFO and Carbon Reactors...thinking maybe that was overkill at this point.
B) I dose with Reef Plus vitamins and Amino Acids... at the prescribed dose
C) I have a very healthy population of pods...
D) I have little to no algae in the tank as the cleanup crew has done its job.
E) I am running bare bottom... which has not caused any problems with my water parameters...
D) I feed coral food by Azoo and feed phyto as well as spot feed with Reef Chili....

My LED light schedule is:
Blues ramp up 0% to 100% over 3 hours and then 100% for 7 hours then ramp down over three hours from 100% to 0% for a total period of 13 hours. This has not changed in months.
Whites ramp 0% to 90% over 4 hours and then 90% to 0% over then next 4 hours... for a total of 8 hours. Again... this has not changed much... I have gone up or down 5-10% in intensity to find the right color mix for me. This should not have caused issues... so I would think. I do not run moonlights at all... Again... nothing has really changed much over the last couple of months on the lighting... so... not sure this is something that could cause the seemingly sudden reverse in progress...

So... I am open to ideas... I am really in need of some help...

Thanks!
 
Dre - The LEDs are 11.5" from the water line. Again... nothing changed there since I first set things up.
 
One other add... I have been doing about a 20 gal water change...every two weeks or so. The last two weeks... I have done about 20 gals each week....thinking that perhaps there are trace elements that needs replacement.... and of course... I had a need to do something....and water changing was what I have been doing. I am going to do another 20 tomorrow....

My RODI is in need of yearly filter replacement... and the TDS meter on the product water is 0....so I do not think there is a problem there. I have also just changed last water change to a new bucket of Red Sea Coral Pro... I have not had any issues with this salt...and have heard others having good results with it.
 
I am going to have to say it's the LEDs Dan. I hate to say it but I ain't down with them yet.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to throw the LED's under the bus. Reefers have been using LED's for years now with great results. You might want to adjust the strength down a bit though. Sometimes corals get picky about lighting, even if things have been going well for a while. And/or increase feeding a tad.
 
Cubbies - I am afraid of that too... What I do not get is that things were doing so well.... thriving even! But the last 3-4 weeks things have been slowly changing...
 
DanSreef said:
Cubbies - I am afraid of that too... What I do not get is that things were doing so well.... thriving even! But the last 3-4 weeks things have been slowly changing...
Click to expand...

Maybe corals can tolerate up to a point and try and support themselves but after a while they can't take it anymore. Idk but that would be my guess. I've seen and heard alot out of LEDs. Not trying to throw them under the bus but I honestly don't trust em myself. Way too much that hasn't been answered out there for me.
 
Dan,

I have to say that it might be the BP.. Try to take some out and not run the full amount recommended.. I also had the same issue and not sure if it was the BP or the high ALK swing. Now I’m starting build my SPS again after the loss

But it could also be your LEDS running at 100%, which could be cooking them slow IMO..
 
yogoshio said:
I wouldn't be so quick to throw the LED's under the bus. Reefers have been using LED's for years now with great results. You might want to adjust the strength down a bit though. Sometimes corals get picky about lighting, even if things have been going well for a while. And/or increase feeding a tad.
Click to expand...

I am not ready to throw them under the bus....yet. I have a call and email out to Joe at Apollo and hope he can give some insight from his side...though I am not expecting much. What is odd is that visually there are counter indications... bleaching out for some corals in the lower part of the tank that suggests too much light.... then in the middle to upper third...some loss of color and browning out which suggests maybe not enough.

Again... all of the corals were thriving...until about 4-5 weeks ago...
 
Lil BamBam said:
Dan,

I have to say that it might be the BP.. Try to take some out and not run the full amount recommended.. I also had the same issue and not sure if it was the BP or the high ALK swing. Now I’m starting build my SPS again after the loss

But it could also be your LEDS running at 100%, which could be cooking them slow IMO..
Click to expand...

You also had a huge change after changing something. Don't forget about that ;)
 
Thanks Dre - I have been running BP almost from the start. I also run them on my 72 and have had no problems with them... I have no indication of an excess of build up of bacteria within the tank. The reactor discharge is almost directly into the skimmer. There is no clumping of pellets or souring of the culture. Given that I am bare bottom... I am hesitant to shut them down unless there is more of an indication that they are a problem.
 
I've heard a lot of stories like this with BP. Not bashing them, it's a good product, but I've heard a lot of stories about BP causing some bleaching if the person was running too much, or even "recommended," which is a joke because no one knows your tank.
 
yogoshio said:
I've heard a lot of stories like this with BP. Not bashing them, it's a good product, but I've heard a lot of stories about BP causing some bleaching if the person was running too much, or even "recommended," which is a joke because no one knows your tank.
Click to expand...

I think I would suspect the BP if they were new to the equation. Since I have been running them....the same quantity... no changes... since I started the tank... I would be surprised they are the issue.

One person over in Reef Sanctuary has suggested lowering the intensity of the LEDs. Since I am running an Ultra Low Nutrient system...combined with the power of the LEDs.... I may indeed be cooking the corals. I guess that makes sense. I have heard that when running BP or Carbon....or both... that the clarity of the water is so good that the PAR values can be significant higher than ... I have heard that was part of the problem even with T-5's too.
 
So.... quick update. I spent a good hour and a half on the phone late last night with the owner of Apollo Reef LEDs. Joe is a good guy for sure. I doubt another manufacturer would have called me up almost immediately when he got my email and voicemail.

Not surprisingly he does not think it is a light issue. There just are too many counter indicators that don’t make sense. Loss of color and browning out at the high area of the tank…. Some bleaching in the low areas. He suggested that I find a par meter to test the par values in the tank before I do much on changes in intensity. Over on RS there are a few folks that have said they too have had bleaching from these lights…that they just put out so much par. Then add the fact that I am running an ultra low nutrient system then causes PAR to be much higher in the tank… such clear water… as one said… too much par… to low of nutrients …. too much of anything is going to be a problem.

So, I am looking for a par meter that I can borrow…. I would like to take some measurements from around that tank…and in particular at the point I have some corals… If someone has one… please PM with details. In the meantime, I have heard some suggestions of taking the intensity down which I am doing. I am reducing my whites to 70% and blues to 80%. We will see what happens.

Thanks to all who have weighed in. If there are more suggestions… please send them my way.
 
Dan, this is crazy. You have browning up high on some and bleaching down low on others. Could there be 2 issues at the same time? The only thing I can think of is to drop your alk a little bit. There is a lot of evidence to support that it should be 7-8 dkh when carbon dosing. Higher than 8 can cause bleaching...but you're only at a 9...???...how new is your alk test kit?

Other than that it sounds like your idea of testing the par should be your next step.
 
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