Tang Police???

I definitely don't want to have a miserable tang just to say I have one. I like tangs I'd like to have a bigger tank but the budget won't allow for it at this point. I just want to know if there is a responsible way to keep a tang in my 65. Is there a certain size at which a tang should be moved from my 65 to a larger home? I really like the Kole tangs as well as some other bristletooth tangs and I love yellows so I guess that's a positive. I do have.to admit I have never quarantined a fish. I know its just a matter of time before that catches up with me so its something I'd like to start doing. I guess my first question on that note would be what size tank would he required for a QT? Are we talking like a 20L with a power filter and a regular florescent light Hood or is it more complicated than that??

A 20L is good a hob sponge filter, Aquaclear works well. You don't need any fancy light. I just use a clip-on reading light with a regular light bulb. I'd advise on a small powerhead to circulate water and don't forget a heater. Although not mandatory, I use a little airstone. You'll leave the tank bare-bottom but its nice to cut a piece of pvc pipe so they have a little cave to swim into and chill.
 
koles are recommend for a minimum of 75G tank, you're not too far off...

So I can't have a Kole tang of any size in my 65? I was under the impression it was ok to have a juvenile tang as long as I am prepared to send him to a larger home once he outgrows my tank?

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So I can't have a Kole tang of any size in my 65? I was under the impression it was ok to have a juvenile tang as long as I am prepared to send him to a larger home once he outgrows my tank?

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There are a few tangs that can go in a 75. Mimic, Striated Bristletooth, Kole's, Tomini or Brown. If I had to pick one of them it would be a Kole.

I don't suppose anyone would go nuts if you kept an adult Kole in a 65.
 
Ohhhhhhh. Duh. LOL. For its entire lifespan or just until it starts getting hyper and stressed being a sign that its too big for my tank?

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Ohhhhhhh. Duh. LOL. For its entire lifespan or just until it starts getting hyper and stressed being a sign that its too big for my tank?

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Some people would probably say otherwise but my guess is that a Kole's would probably not outgrow your 65. Out of all the tangs, if you want a shot at keeping one long term, it would be one of these. This is a call you'll need to make yourself.
 
Sorry there's just so many mixed opinions out there I'm just trying to get as many as possible yes I like the Kole tangs and they also happen to be one of the smaller tangs and I've read they aren't as active and don't need quite as much swimming room as other tangs. So I guess that works out for me. Thanks for all the input.

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What do you mean by stunted??
Personally, I think there is a lot more to stunting than just one or two big items. Fish health and the ability to reach full genetic potential depends on a multitude of factors including the genetics, a healthy near-environment (basically water quality for fish), an appropriate environment (this includes decor, swimming space, refuge, current, lighting), and suitable food in sufficient quantity but not in excess.

You need to know how big the fish should be (Fishbase is a reliable source for this), what sort of water and physical environment the fish lives in, and what its lifestyle is schooler, lurking predator, active hunter predator, whatever, whether or not it allows or even may need conspecific or perhaps dither tankmates, or none at all. Any of these can and likely will change during development for any given fish.

Tank size hits several of these points it allows for areas of current, for visually complex setups to explore, and space for swimming. Plus, it plays on a signature line I often use, "The solution to pollution is dilution". With increased water volume, pollutants of whatever type will be at lower concentration than the same bioload will give in smaller quarters.

Many or most fish seem to like areas of current, many do exercise in the current. Hunters get some just by exploration of a complex environment. Schoolers (Auriglobus when young, Colomesus throughout their life) absolutely must have it or they will show caged animal stereotyped behavior just to work off activity normal and in effect hard-wired into the animal. Fish need exercise. All mobile animals need exercise. Koi kept in shallow ponds do not develop normal configurations. They are too long and slender. They need depth as well as length and width. Without exercise, muscle mass will not be in normal proportion to frame and internal organs. Puffers have less structured skeletons than most fish (adaptation to puffing), so IMHO they need to have whatever exercise they are willing to do to allow normal physical development. The space or volume bit has impact here as well. Pollution, whether from metabolites or hormones of general organics, suppresses normal growth and development. What levels of which are important? We do not know. We do that it varies from family to family for various pollutants over a substantial range. It is highly likely to vary from species to species within a family. In the best of all possible worlds, tanks would all be a high multiple of the length of the fish housed there. In reality, we rarely can provide that other than for the smallest fish. But we try to just as much volume as we can. We provide both current and relative calm, without having totally dead areas, in the tank, and we match the deor to the lifestyle of the fish.

Naturally, we feed both well and wisely. We meet the fish's nutritional and physical food suited to the particular fish. We provide enough to allow the fish to grow normally, but not so much that the fish is obese. Obesity is as great an issue for fish as for people and dogs. Too much food, not the best food, and feeding too often, all lead to problems.

Water quality I'll assume as a given. Un-oxidized metabolites (ammonia and/or nitrite) are never detectable, oxidized metabolites (nitrate) are as low as is practical for us to provide, but certainly below 40 ppm nitrate, better below 20 ppm, best at or below 10 ppm (for FO, obviously). Organics are kept low by large water changes at sufficiently short intervals that hobby testable water parameters are never far off from the source water used for the tank. That means the water you remove should be quite close to the water you will replace it with, excepting perhaps the nitrate titer, and the organic (which we cannot measure).


IF you can provide all of this, your fish will, on the average, exceed the normal lifespan of the species in the wild, and frequently will be as large as if not larger than the wild counterparts. Anything less is stunting. Anything less will result in lower health and shorter life.

To me stunting is insufficient space, improper diet and exercise, and both chemical and physical environmental deficiencies. Any or all of those lacks can contribute. Any or all can result in a stunted fish.

Written by Robert T Ricketts (a Mentor on The Puffer Forum)
 
Personally, I think there is a lot more to stunting than just one or two big items. Fish health and the ability to reach full genetic potential depends on a multitude of factors including the genetics, a healthy near-environment (basically water quality for fish), an appropriate environment (this includes decor, swimming space, refuge, current, lighting), and suitable food in sufficient quantity but not in excess.

You need to know how big the fish should be (Fishbase is a reliable source for this), what sort of water and physical environment the fish lives in, and what its lifestyle is schooler, lurking predator, active hunter predator, whatever, whether or not it allows or even may need conspecific or perhaps dither tankmates, or none at all. Any of these can and likely will change during development for any given fish.

Tank size hits several of these points it allows for areas of current, for visually complex setups to explore, and space for swimming. Plus, it plays on a signature line I often use, "The solution to pollution is dilution". With increased water volume, pollutants of whatever type will be at lower concentration than the same bioload will give in smaller quarters.

Many or most fish seem to like areas of current, many do exercise in the current. Hunters get some just by exploration of a complex environment. Schoolers (Auriglobus when young, Colomesus throughout their life) absolutely must have it or they will show caged animal stereotyped behavior just to work off activity normal and in effect hard-wired into the animal. Fish need exercise. All mobile animals need exercise. Koi kept in shallow ponds do not develop normal configurations. They are too long and slender. They need depth as well as length and width. Without exercise, muscle mass will not be in normal proportion to frame and internal organs. Puffers have less structured skeletons than most fish (adaptation to puffing), so IMHO they need to have whatever exercise they are willing to do to allow normal physical development. The space or volume bit has impact here as well. Pollution, whether from metabolites or hormones of general organics, suppresses normal growth and development. What levels of which are important? We do not know. We do that it varies from family to family for various pollutants over a substantial range. It is highly likely to vary from species to species within a family. In the best of all possible worlds, tanks would all be a high multiple of the length of the fish housed there. In reality, we rarely can provide that other than for the smallest fish. But we try to just as much volume as we can. We provide both current and relative calm, without having totally dead areas, in the tank, and we match the deor to the lifestyle of the fish.

Naturally, we feed both well and wisely. We meet the fish's nutritional and physical food suited to the particular fish. We provide enough to allow the fish to grow normally, but not so much that the fish is obese. Obesity is as great an issue for fish as for people and dogs. Too much food, not the best food, and feeding too often, all lead to problems.

Water quality I'll assume as a given. Un-oxidized metabolites (ammonia and/or nitrite) are never detectable, oxidized metabolites (nitrate) are as low as is practical for us to provide, but certainly below 40 ppm nitrate, better below 20 ppm, best at or below 10 ppm (for FO, obviously). Organics are kept low by large water changes at sufficiently short intervals that hobby testable water parameters are never far off from the source water used for the tank. That means the water you remove should be quite close to the water you will replace it with, excepting perhaps the nitrate titer, and the organic (which we cannot measure).


IF you can provide all of this, your fish will, on the average, exceed the normal lifespan of the species in the wild, and frequently will be as large as if not larger than the wild counterparts. Anything less is stunting. Anything less will result in lower health and shorter life.

To me stunting is insufficient space, improper diet and exercise, and both chemical and physical environmental deficiencies. Any or all of those lacks can contribute. Any or all can result in a stunted fish.

Written by Robert T Ricketts (a Mentor on The Puffer Forum)

Dang!!
 
Yeah, he's a scientist in the hobby for longer than I've been alive. He's a bit long-winded but a pure genius, when it comes to aquarium-keeping!
 
Maybe the problem is I'm not intellectual enough because that was all just gibberish to me. I feel kinda frustrated. I'm not upset with anyone I just feel I have a couple simple questions that require simple answers and maybe the issue is me. Perhaps I see things too much in black and white and not enough gray. Here are my questions.
1. Can I keep a Kole or any other tang long term in my 65 gal? Although I have received multiple yes answers from multiple sources it doesn't seem like a good idea.

2. Is it common and responsible reef keeping to get a juvenile specimen and then move them to a larger home as they start to outgrow my tank and then maybe replace them with a new juvenile specimen??

3. For a Kole tang what size would this be? I have been told its not an exact size but when the fish starts to get hyper and/or aggressive they need more room.

I wish I could afford a 180gal setup then I wouldn't have these issues. And I basically upgraded spent money my family doesn't really have for no reason at this point.

Sorry I'm just venting.
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1) yes just buy a fish you know won't outgrow the tank in a matter of months like a vlamingii.

2) yes this is common practice, not going to get involved in the moral right/wrong of the question.

3) use your best judgement to tell when your fish doesn't belong anymore, every fish is like a person, with their own personalities. You'll get a feel for your fish over time and know when they aren't happy anymore.
 
I guess the moral right/wrong is my sticking point. If it is morally wrong then I wont do it. If it is seen as irresponsible then again I wont do it. But if it is seen as commonplace and morally acceptable then I would consider said practice.


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I think it's too personal a question sparky. It's like asking if it's ok to speed sometimes. Depends on your audience. We are putting fish in glass boxes. the moral implications start out with a negative tilt, but maybe someday one of our tanks will hold the last of a species. is that conservation or insensitive treatment of life? Depends again on the audience. It subjective. You are obviously taking the well being of the animal into consideration and a tang in a well managed 65 is way better off than one in a poorly run 180 if you ask me. tang police exist because it is the first thing everyone reads about on forums, it's easy to remember and everyone starts out wanting a tang. Nobody really cares that most hermit crabs are doomed because people don't keep enough larger shells. It's all subjective. Call it an experiment in keeping a kole happy in a 65 and report the progress. Then you are doing it for more than just a hobby. :sarcastic:
 
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