Vitamin C Dosing

[BlueToothTusk]

My chalices have been thriving with the addition of Vitamin C. It helps rebuild collagen in their cells. If all is good with your parameters, you have nothing picking on the coral or fighting with it, you may want to start dosing.

im beginning to think you have some sort of vitamin C sponsorship!

I really swear by the stuff, can you tell? I should just slap my label on it & sell it as a coral elixer.

I have heard both good and bad things about dosing Vitamin C. I would be interested in seeing some coral slides under a microscope to see if there is any truth in the increased collagen/cell wall thickness with the addition of VitC.

Make sure if you DO decide to start dosing you have a large protein skimmer, otherwise the addition of VitC like any other carbon dosing source can quickly crash a tank.

 

[Pufferpunk]

My tanks do well with a small Backpac, even dosing as high as 50ppm. Hundreds of successful users at RC proves it helps with healing/regrowing coral tissue. Many scientists commented on collagen growth due to VC.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/collagen.html

 

[BlueToothTusk]

My tanks do well with a small Backpac, even dosing as high as 50ppm. Hundreds of successful users at RC proves it helps with healing/regrowing coral tissue. Many scientists commented on collagen growth due to VC.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/collagen.html

I understand the users (far from hundreds) on RC make claims that Vitamin C has helped their corals, but these claims could be for any reason (carbon dosing, etc.). I actually had a conversation with someone yesterday (20+ years in the hobby) about VitC and they explained to me your history with the additive. Their explanation is that you started dosing this additive when your tank was very young and attributed your success to the additive when in reality it could, and according to them probably was, just your tank settling and finally becoming stable.

Is your only evidence based on collagen growth in human beings? Different animals synthesize different chemicals, proteins, and supplements differently. Randy Holmes-Farley also treats VitC as a simple carbon dosing source with no other added effects. This is why I would love to see specifically coral cells on a microscopic level with both VitC dosing and without.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

Conversation relocated

 

[Pufferpunk]

IDK who you spoke to about "my history" but that tank was about 3 years old when I started dosing. Yes, there are hundreds of hobbyists dosing VC successfully, if you include my puffer forum, RC & the countless other forums I have posted on about this. I can also add, I have cured HLLE, crypt & zoapox with higher doses.

 

[BlueToothTusk]

IDK who you spoke to about "my history" but that tank was about 3 years old when I started dosing. Yes, there are hundreds of hobbyists dosing VC successfully, if you include my puffer forum, RC & the countless other forums I have posted on about this. I can also add, I have cured HLLE, crypt & zoapox with higher doses.

But do you have any proof that it was the VitC that cured the issue? HLLE is known to go away on it's own with proper diet. You certainly didn't cure crypt as crypt can only be killed by hypo, copper, or quinine sulfate but like the HLLE proper diet will mask the effects and prevent flare ups, and zoapox have been known to recede on their own with good water quality.

My question to you is do you have any scientific evidence whatsoever that VitC is good for more than just carbon dosing. I am still interested to see what evidence you have about collagen growth in the cells of marine organisms. It seems like all the evidence you provide is anecdotal and no experiment using the scientific method and a control group has been initiated.

 

[400gallonnano]

+1 to bluetoothtusk

 

[jcarlilesiu]

It seems like all the evidence you provide is anecdotal and no experiment using the scientific method and a control group has been initiated.

This entire hobby to me is anecdotal.

I didn't take up this hobby for the purposes of becoming a marine biologist or any other professional scientist.

In my opinion, my experiences in the hobby over the several decades that I have kept aquariums doesn't need to be supplemented or justified with scientific data in order for me to discuss what works and doesn't work with my tanks anecdotally.

If people don't want to take my opinion or advice, based on what worked for me, they are free to do so. That isn't going to stop me from providing my own personal experiences to people who may have an interest in trying the same methods.

I think most people in this hobby operate this way with many beautiful tanks to credit with the anecdotal process.

Just sayin.

 

[ColaAddict]

+1 to Jakes anectodal comment.
although I have recieved some great advice from Randy Holmes Farley.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

+1 to Jakes anectodal comment.
although I have recieved some great advice from Randy Holmes Farley.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with professional experience, test results, evidence and supporting documents, etc.

My point being that a discussion forum such at this doesn't require such backup in order to explain what did or didn't work for people or to suggest certain remedies to problems or issues in an effort to educate other refers not on text book facts but real world experiences.

There is nothing here that means that things need to be peer reviewed and backed up with scientific data to suggest that somebody reduce their lights being on for 18 hours when they have an algae outbreak for instance.

There is nothing wrong with trial and error or the suggestion of it.

 

[BlueToothTusk]

There is nothing here that means that things need to be peer reviewed and backed up with scientific data to suggest that somebody reduce their lights being on for 18 hours when they have an algae outbreak for instance.
.

There is science behind this statement though. It is a scientific fact that plants such as algae require light to photosynthesize. Making wild claims like VitC increases Collagen/Cell Wall Thickness in a marine organism or claiming that you eliminated a parasite which has been proven by science can not be cured using VitC is misleading and unfortunately false as well.

Saying VitC cured Crypt is similar to saying a human taking a multivitimin every morning prevented them from getting a tick while camping. It is simply incorrect

It would be one thing if PufferPunk said she THINKS that VitC can do something, but she does not KNOW that it cured HLLE or helped anything else. Generally carbon dosing also helps with many of the other issues she is experiencing. It is probable that the small skimmer she recommended in the other thread as well as the use of a carbon dosing source is leading to those issues. That is something that can be backed by science. When carbon dosing is initiated and there is not a sufficient foam fractitioner to remove the bacteria, that bacteria dies and causes water quality issues.

Everything that truly works in this hobby has science behind it. The things that do not work (purple up, reef safe crypt meds, etc) also have science behind why they do not work. Whether the person recommending the product/process has intricate knowledge of the science is different from whether or not the science exists. There is simply no science that I am able to find behind the use of VitC in a marine environment for anything other then carbon dosing.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

There is science behind this statement though.

But the scientific back-up to defend a "turn your lights off earlier" isn't necessary.

"Why?" you ask. Because in my experience and that of multiple individuals, reducing the amount of light solves the issue.

There is not need to prove the photosynthesis period of suspended algae to make the suggestion.

It is a scientific fact that plants such as algae require light to photosynthesize.

As it is also a fact that many people have experienced that suspended algae is often a cause of excess nutrients and too long of a photo period. Thus the "turn off your lights and do more water changes" response is valid regardless if it is backed up or not.

Making wild claims like VitC increases Collagen/Cell Wall Thickness in a marine organism or claiming that you eliminated a parasite which has been proven by science can not be cured using VitC is misleading and unfortunately false as well.

I am pretty sure that the individual said that is what works for them.

As far as sourcing things. Source the bolded above.

Saying VitC cured Crypt is similar to saying a human taking a multivitimin every morning prevented them from getting a tick while camping. It is simply incorrect

We don't live in a black and white world tooth. Every tank is different. Every species is different.

I used to eat matches, the kind that make fire, before going to the field in the army. The thought was that the sulfur in the match head would sweat back out of you in low dosages and keep the bugs off of you. Did we have scientific proof to back it up? No. Did it work in my opinion? Yes. Would I recommend it to somebody else in a similar situation?

Sure.

The point is. This is a discussion forum. This isn't a peer reviewed, scientific, know-it-all conference.

If you can prove that somebody was inaccurate in their claims, or if you want somebody to back up a fact they presented... thats one thing. If you are saying people can't make suggestions on anecdotal information they have from experience, then I think you are wrong.

 

[BlueToothTusk]

I am pretty sure that the individual said that is what works for them.


.

I can also add, I have cured HLLE, crypt & zoapox with higher doses.

That is not what they said, they said they HAVE (factual statement) cured these diseases one of which is impossible to cure with the VitC.

I agree that this is a discussion forum, and I am glad you as a moderator can enjoy a discussion without censorship, however when someone makes a claim that can damage ones aquarium (carbon dosing with a "small back-pack skimmer") it is time for experienced aquarists to speak up and make sure that the newer less experienced hobbyist doesn't take that advice. If they do the cycle perpetuates and poor advice cycles through the trade.

I apologize for the horrific run on sentence in that last paragraph.

Also, there is SCIENCE behind your match eating bug repellant. Many mosquito foggers use sulfur to repel insects.

 

[ColaAddict]

Back when I was having ich problems due to adding tangs, I lost fish while attempting hyposalinity and copper treatments. When I started using garlic dosing to fish food and to main tank, all ich disappeared within a matter of days and no fish died (I used garlic treatment on a separate ich problem, so no hypo or copper was used prior to the garlic). I tried garlic because people say it has worked for them. I didn't really find any scientific evidence regarding garlic use. For the majority of reefers here, reefing is alot of trial and error.
BluetoothTusk seems like he is definitely in the science field and if you want to do a study regarding Jenny's Vit C dosing, please go ahead. I'm sure there's a lot of us who would be curious enough to follow that study. I'm all about following what's scientifically proven, but I'm also about trying out what has worked for alot of reefers officially researched or not.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

That is not what they said, they said they HAVE (factual statement) cured these diseases one of which is impossible to cure with the VitC.

The person said that they were able to cure something with that method, not that the method cures something.

Do you have the scientific proof (the source) to prove that the experience put forth by the user isn't accurate?

 

[BlueToothTusk]

The person said that they were able to cure something with that method, not that the method cures something.

Do you have the scientific proof (the source) to prove that the experience put forth by the user isn't accurate?

Unfortunately it seems like this debate has dwindled down to an issue of semantics.

No one is able to cure Crypt with anything but Hypo, Copper, Quinine Sulfate, or the rarely used "Transfer Method". Now I have no doubt that PufferPunk feels she treated the symptoms of Crypt with VitC, maybe even prevented it from flaring up. This is similar to ColaAddict's experience with Garlic (which I add to my food along with selcon). Unfortunately her statement that she cured it with this vitamin is false.

If you will allow me 24 hours I would be happy to find you some articles from reputable scientists describing the only proven methods of irradiating (not just treating/preventing) Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich).

 

[jcarlilesiu]

I think many people would be interested in seeing that data/back-up.

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk

 

[400gallonnano]

I would be interested in seeing data from both parties. If your going to claim something works you should have something to back it up besides saying well it worked in my tank because there are way to many other variables that could solved the problem. And if your going to push people to use it you would think you would have some way of backing it up

 

[Tank2379]

I would be interested- But I heard that Ginger Works very well with curing all sorts of Fish Diseases- You gotta Juice it to get the goods out though...

 

[BlueToothTusk]

I would be interested- But I heard that Ginger Works very well with curing all sorts of Fish Diseases- You gotta Juice it to get the goods out though...

Ginger is actually mentioned in the literature significantly more than VitC (which is zero times) with regard to the treatment of Crypt.